So, I always take it upon myself to recommend any podcasts to readers. As pointed out by Ian Wright it was refreshing to see the latest guest on ‘Stick to Football’ be someone not associated to Man United. Strasbourg boss Patrick Vieira joined the Overlap series.
Here are 10 things we learnt when the Arsenal legend sat down with Mr Gary Neville and friends.
Pick The Right People Not the Right Club
What’s a common theme throughout is that it’s clear Viera has been hurt by previous employers. While he doesn’t directly challenge Steve Parish it’s clear that one of those places of work is Crystal Palace.
The 47 year old’s principles is; it’s easy for someone to believe in you when things are going well, but they should have that leadership when things are going against you.
Feeling that offers to return home to France and work in the Premiership were too good to turn down he perhaps naively believed in the interviews that those hiring wouldn’t lose trust at the first sign of adversity.
One of the first questions he asked Strasbourg when they made him a job offer was how those in power would react to the harder times?
Whether this ethos to work is slightly naive is a debatable ……..
Mr Wenger’s Principles
Most of us are not rich enough where we are in a position to weigh up our bosses personality. The majority have to accept an offer no matter the character of those paying our wages. Yet it’s not a shock that the Frenchman would have such an emphasis in trusting those you work with, when you consider he first met Arsene Wenger when he was teenager.
Eventually a double act for 9 years, he identifies Mr Wenger’s biggest quality as the belief he would put into people, especially youngsters. Once you had that faith it was hard to shake, almost unwavering unless you did something seriously wrong.
No matter what the media or fans would be saying, even if it were the easy solution to give up on a talent, that support was unwavering.
That’s clearly the kind of manager our ex-captain wants to be, and while he feels that can be created on the pitch, he’s yet to find that type of character off it.
Wenger Over Pep!
What was refreshing about this interview was you never felt the guest was saying what he thought others would want him to say.
Man City at one point had the midfielder as part of their set up, looking after their youth teams and American franchise, the plan was to develop him into their next manager.
So clearly someone at the Etihad once saw potential in the player to transition into a quality coach. After a few years Viera got tired of waiting, with the chance to learn at Nice too good to turn down. Yet asked if Pep Guardiola influenced his coaching, the answer might not go down well on the blue half of Manchester.
Vieira was quick to stress that Pep has always had the ingredients to work with reminding us of all that no matter how many great ideas a manager has, if he hasn’t got the players, it’s irrelevant.
‘Impressed by the Unprofessionalism’ (This isn’t a typo!)
So, you know how some Gooners act that Mikel Arteta is the only man to ever walk into a new job with issues to fix? it’s a myth. Vieira had a first eye account of the mess Mr Wenger inherited when both moved to England.
The 20-year-old had been in Italy where he was used to his peers arriving to training in suits, eating healthy after practise and taking a nap before going home.
In North London he walked into a drinking culture, a dressing room with poor time keeping, ageing players nursing aches and pains unaware of how to look after their bodies.
He explains times the French Connection agreeing to meet their teammates for some dinner, but by the time he arrived in the evening for a meal most of the English lads were ready to go home to bed because they had been eating and drinking all day.
Mr Wenger took that mindset and made the Gunners Champions in his first full season!
‘I didn’t Understand How Nigel and Lee Managed to Play at That Level’?
Another myth that some Gooners spout is that Mr Wenger couldn’t spot or develop a defender and was simply fortunate to inherit the famous back 4 he did. A 20-year Viera is well qualified to tell you just how much Mr Wenger prolonged their careers.
Tony Adam’s vices are well documented but in training the youngster watched our ageing full backs carry so many back/knees/ankle issues on such a regular basis that, combined with their lifestyles, he simply couldn’t comprehend how they would be able to play at the weekend. He estimates that how great they were on a match day, only 20 percent of that would you had seen in practise.
Mr Wenger would introduce the dressing room to dietary and stretching methods that led to the most successful period in our history.
In his first preseason the manager would be questioned by the same talent when he put less emphasis on work with the ball, and gave more time to rest and recover. He insisted later in the year the squad would feel so much fresher …. They won the Double in his first full season!
Vieira Vs Keane
Some pundits try to tell you Man City and Liverpool had a rivalry. In reality Klopp won one title while Pep lifted 6. Older fans will remember how intense Arsenal Vs Man United used to be.
Starting off as competitive, it got to the point where both managers and set of players truly didn’t like each other. Even now respectful, you sense the club’s two former skippers to this day believe they were the superior midfielder. Yet the two stress they never had the disdain for each other that they had for others they faced.
Both loved the battle and increasingly realised it was crucial in deciding who’s team won that day. Yet both admired the other for their ‘honesty’.
Both believed they were the best and were willing to kick the lump out of each other. The difference being they would look each other in the eye, wouldn’t hide the fact and would shake hands afterwards (well not always). Both respected that, more than those who were cowardly and sneaky and would kick you from behind.
Vieira vs Neville
Being regular pundits, we have often heard the events of the night of February the 1st 2005 from Gary Neville and Roy Keane’s point of view.
Neville always maintained he didn’t understand why Vieira suddenly shouted at him as they were walking back into the dressing rooms after the pre match warm up, assuming there was confusion over a charity training top?
As his captain, Roy Keane took it upon himself in the Highbury tunnel to defend his right back, confronting our skipper.
Incredibly it’s taken nearly two decades for Vieira to tell the host the simple truth ….’I hated you’.
In what was controversial at the time, many felt that in recent fixtures Man United were getting increasingly physical towards Arsenal. While Darren Fletcher and Gary’s brother were equally guilty, Vieira identified the older Neville as the main culprit feeling ‘you had crossed the line’. Viera identified the treatment of Pires, saying his countryman was ‘too nice’ to speak up.
Still maintaining United would intimidate officials so the Gunners had little protection, Vieira felt it was his duty to stand up to the defender and let him know it would no longer be tolerated.
Neville Admits United Went Too Far?
Ironically in a separate conversation Gary Neville and Roy Keane admit that United maybe took it too far in how physical they became towards the Gunners.
Keane actually feels Gary’s baby brother was the worse culprit, with Ian Wright pointing out how they kicked the late Antonio Reyes.
All round the table stressed that Mr Wenger and Sir Alex were not the type to order their teams to hurt the opposition.
Yet both of the Man United pundits noticed that Arsenal was the only domestic fixture where their boss would add an extra midfielder. Both recognise it as sign of respect to their opponents, an acknowledgement they could no longer compete at free flowing football and had to find another way to beat us.
All involved in this interview admit United would never get away with these tactics in 2024.
The New Vieira?
When asked if any Gunner since his departure has reminded him of himself Viera was dismissive. Which makes sense, he’s one of our greatest ever players and Arsenal haven’t won the title since he was sold.
He did eventually name Abou Diaby, feeling that the midfielder had more natural skills to become a better player than even himself.
He’s not the first or last person within in the sport to predict how great Diaby would have been had he not broke his leg in 2006, an injury he never truly recovered from. He would suffer lengthy knee and ankle issues for the rest of his career, forcing him to retire at the age of 32.
Dream Job?
Where a Thierry Henry has always been vocal about dreaming of returning to the Emirates one day as manager, our former captain was less romantic when asked the question.
That might confirm the rumours that he was always offended by the interviewing process when Arsenal were looking for Unai Emery’s replacement.
Vieira says his main goal is to manage a side in the Champions League, but ideally one that that he used to represent. He listed Man City, Inter Milan as well as the Gunners.
Dan
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I noticed that Dan somehow left out the part in ‘Impressed by the Unprofessionalism’ that PV4 spoke highly about how those players performed on the training pitch and in games despite their drinking, eating, aches and pains. Much different to what Mikel inherited.
Can you name me their league positions between last title win and before Wenger arrived
It was worse then what Arteta inherited
Also Mr Wenger in first full season then took us to Double
Arteta first full season took us 8th lol
Different remit for the managers at The Arsenal in them days, they had to win trophies. They didn’t have the luxury of just finishing in the top 4.
In the years since the last League Title win in ’91, we won the FA Cup and League Cup in the 92/93 season, becoming the first club to achieve that.
The following season 93/94 we won our 2nd European trophy, the Cup Winners Cup, which was the second biggest European trophy.
The following season 94/95 we came close to making history again, just failing to retain the CWC.
If you think that’s worse that what Mikel walked into then I have a bridge to sell you lol.
Your words were they were successful
They were finishing 12th and 10th and winning the odd cup – Wenger made them champions
Arteta took a team finishing higher and winning the odd cup lol- took them 8th
Please show me where I used the word “successful” ?
I’ll wait, but I certainly won’t be hold my breath, lol.
As I posted previously, different remit for the manager in those days. They had to win trophies, which happened, despite the league position, lol.
Like Dan said, Arteta is not the first or only manager to walk into a team in disarray. And as per Dan’s stats and Vieir’s comments, Wenger walked into a worse team. There’s no point making these comparisons.
Moreover, we’re about to lose our brightest academy product to Bayern Munich cos we NEVER promote. Even City does. Yet you’re trying to compare Wenger with Arteta? Pls stop
Wenger walked into a club where the players, although they had their problems, still gave it their all in training and in the games, as per what PV4 said. A bit different to what happened with Mikel.
I’ll carry on with what I feel is right 🙂
Herr Dierr if you say you respect Wenger it’s dishonest. Be true to your feelings.
I have never seen someone going out of his way to discredit Wenger as you always do.
Arteta does not measure to Wenger. It will take him a lot of efforts and time to reach that level.
And I don’t think he will because being a true to the word checkbook manager, there will not always be money to bail him out.
People can hate Wenger all they want but they will go to the Emirates that he built and bow at his statue on their way in!
And he remains the only invincible one and will continue to be for a long time to come. A bitter pill to swallow but haters will have to keep swallowing it nonetheless. Most likely for the rest of their lives because I don’t see that record broken for another century.
HH, where have I said I respect Wenger ? I have no respect for a liar, or a manager that disrespects the match going supporters !
Tell me a player that came to the club while Wenger was in charge that we never bought ? Even Jack Wilshire was bought as a kid from Luton Town !
Now correct me if I’m wrong, but did Wenger work for McAlpine, as they were the ones that built the stadium !
Do you mean from youth team or out of contract ?
If you mean youth – Ashley Cole and Saka ?
If you mean out of contract Sol Campbell
If your implying he couldn’t spot value ……Toure , Fabregas , Anelka , etc lol
Cole was there in the youth set up under Rioch. We got Saka from Watford.
I mean from the youth team. We all know about Sol Campbell.
Cole joined 1997 but sorry what is your actual argument that Wenger brought his way to success ?
I’m unsure what point your trying to make
He is our greatest ever manager and one who changed the EPL and world football for the better.
Your disrespect does not take away anything from his status and achievements in world football.
One of the few managers in history of football who can be classed as larger than life.
Everytime you watch games played at the Emirates, everytime you cheer Arteta signings, that is all Wenger’s work.
The modern Arsenal is a house the great Arsene Wenger built. And Arteta and his ardent supporters are enjoying the fruits of his thankless sweat and sacrifice.
He was also the longest serving manager to not win a trophy and not get the sack. He’s also the only manager in the history of this great club that has let a 3 goal lead slip away at home !
Every Arsenal game I watch I can thank the Kroenkes for backing Mikel, both financially and with the time to sort the mess out.
You can make yourself believe that but it won’t change the truth that you are enjoying Wenger’s legacy.
The truth unfortunately, does not care for anyone feelings. Truth is truth whether one ignore it or not or however one choose to interpret it it won’t change a thing.
It’s there and will always be there.
Also the manager who won more trophies then anyone else in our history
Got us to our only CL Final
Went unbeaten all season
And done it spending limited amount of money
And I give you credit for making your feelings open unlike some who claim to respect him with one word and go on to discredit and diss him in the next 100 words.
How old was he 4? 5? So his development at Arsenal was due to Luton spirit living in him?
He was 7, so we still had to pay a small fee for him, much like Southampton had to when they got Walcott from Swindon.
This is a very sad attempt.
Well yeah but you can’t make things up
Wenger inherited a squad who were finishing 12th then 5th and made them champions
Arteta took a squad who finished 6th then 5th and took them 8th
One is factually more impressive
What have I made up ?
We should also remember Hales End and how that was paid for – it is said that the £20 odd million that Arsene made when he sold Anelka paid for the ten pitches, three of which are replicas of the Emirates with undersoil heating – the facilities are second to none and perhaps we could be reminded where our training ground was before this happened?
Not only The Emirates, but the training facilities were all produced during AW’s time.
We look back at Herbert Chapman as a true innovate rand he certainly was – so why can’t we all give Arsene the same a acknowledgement?
Ken, I think you have mixed up Hale End with London Colney.
I had nothing but praise for Wenger during his days at Highbury and the early days at Ashburton Grove. The football I watched at Highbury, wow, I hadn’t seen any Arsenal team play like that before. It reminded of the Nottingham Forest team under Brian Clough when they got promoted to Division 1, only our football was even better. I was sure that we would win another European trophy under Wenger, but sadly for him, and us fans, we didn’t.
These are some of the characters that Wenger inherited:
David Seaman
Lee Dixon
Nigel Winterburn
Steve Bould
Tony Adams
David Platt
Ian Wright
Paul Merson
Dennis Bergkamp
Martin Keown
Ray Parlour
John Hartson etc..
I counted about 6 (six) players in that squad had been part of the 1990-91 Title winning team.
This is what Arteta inherited::
Matteo Guendouzi29 M
Alexandre Lacazette9 F
Lucas Torreira11 M
Nicolas Pépé19 F
Dani Ceballos8 M
Granit Xhaka34 M
Bukayo Saka77 F
Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang14 F
Mesut Özil10 M
Sead Kolasinac31 D
David Luiz23 D
Joe Willock28 M
Ainsley Maitland-Niles15 M
Kieran Tierney3 D
Sokratis Papastathopoulos5 D
Gabriel Martinelli35 F
Eddie Nketiah30 F
Reiss Nelson24 F
Calum Chambers21 D
Rob Holding16 D
Héctor Bellerín2 D
Shkodran Mustafi20 D
Emile Smith Rowe32 M
Mohamed Elneny4 M
William Saliba D
Etc.
You have some young / inexperienced young players in there.
Then you have the first teamers that had become deadwood. Poor and had never shown at all that they could challenge for a title. They were mostly 4th place at best with the external factors factored in.
But at least with the squad Wenger inherited he had some real tough men in there that may be just needed a new breathe of fresh air to get them going again. Wenger was that breathe of fresh air at that given moment. You already had Premier league / Title winning personalities in that 1996-97 squad that wenger inherited.
But compare those personalities he inherited to the ones he left us with in 2017. And Emery added onto in 2019? Those players had become accustomed to tonkings from the other Top team. The likes of Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Barcelona, Bayern etc smashing us 5-0, 6-0 had become part of our new found trait as a team. The individuals that Wenger and Emery left for Arteta were a joke.
Hence why they got Wenger, Emery, Ljumberg sacked. And if the club higher ups hadn’t got to their senses and acknowledged that it was the deadwood players that had been accumulated that were the problem, then those players would also have gotten Arteta sacked. Hence the purging / clearout of most of those players was realised..
At least Some of the players wenger inherited had won a Title a few year back and were real characters and only needed a kick up the backside to get them hungry again.. Wenger was fresh and new ideas back in the 1990’s when he became out manager..
So what’s better
What Wenger inherited and Double in first full season
Or what Arteta inherited and 8th first full season
This is the issue trying to make comparison with the greatest ever manger in our history
@Dan
You did not address the point I made about the players each manager inherited at the time they both were appointed. Which manager had a bigger chance to succeed? One inherited a team full of real tough fighters that needed a new start to kick them into gear once more. About 6 of the first team players he inherited in 1996-97 had been part of the Arsenal team that had won the Premier league in 1991. On top
Of that we had Keown, Parlour, Bergkamp etc… Those were real men to make wenger’s Arsenal maiden voyage that more smoother.
While on the hand Artera inherited a squad full of mentally weak, incompetent, entitled, stagnant players that had poor attitude too. Non of them had a clue about challenging for a Premier league Title later on win it. Not many individuals in there would have put given you any confidence fir a real fight. They were weak all over the place. Those players got Wenger himself sacked if you cab remember that. They also got Emery and Ljumberg sacked. They would also have gotten Arteta sacked if not for the Board to have used their critical thinking and realising must have been the weak / unbalanced players that were the problem and may be not the managers..
I will ask you a simple question. If wenger had been the one that had inherited the poor squad he left behind in 2018, plus the dross that had been accumlated in Emery’s tenure (2019). Do you think the Wenger would have won a double in his first full season (2020-21) with that squad of players?
But Arteta hasn’t that’s why the comparison is silly
So what you should ask is caus Wenger have in 20-21 done better then 8th……
Yes lol
Glad that you now acknowledge that Wenger had winners (Title winners) in the team he inherited while the team he left Emery and Arteta was full weak minded players that had no history of fight in them.
Hence why Wenger himself failed to get that lot to do anything in the years he spent accumulating and trying to make a team out or them. Hence why they got him sacked.
If one of the greatest managers the game has seen (Wenger) struggled to get that lot to maintain Top 4 then how could anyone expect Emery and Arteta have turned them into double winning giants in a season? Emery had no history of winning titles in a competitive league and Arteta was a Rookie.
Simple inductive logic here. The premises match the conclusion.
Isn’t it Dan?
No it’s facts
Wenger took a team with a drinking culture and extended their careers , Revolution football with training methods , diet
Extending careers of old back 4
Spotted gems like Viera and Anelka for a few million .
Brought Petit and Overmars , very astute in the market
Now forget me ….forget even any Arsenal fan
Players have said this lol
Now people can go round the houses and try to discredit his work but why has no Arsenal manager done that since ?
@Dan
No one is refuting wengers earliest work and achievements. We all agree that he revolutionised the EPL.
What we are trying to focus on are the players that they both inherited.
Wenger inherited team that had individuals that had won the Title a few years back (1991).
In 1991 they had won the Title
1993 they had won the FA cup and League Cup
1994 They had won the CWC.
They had a drinking problem, not only them, a large number of players back in the 1990’s and decades before had a drinking habit. It’s Football, which was founded by the Working class / factory, Coal miners, Farmers etc.. Football started off as just somethig for the lads to socialise in after a long hard week of real manual physical job. These men would gather and grab a few beers to cool off aftera long week of working the mines, factories, Farms etc..
Those are the stories I have grown up reading about. It’s a working class sport while sports like Horses, Rugby and Cricket are more or a upper class thing. So drinking back in the 1990’s was normal at all clubs. And wenger definitely changed that. No one is disputing that.
What is being discussed here is: Why Wenger managed to win a double in his first full season as an Arsenal manager while Arteta failed? I myself
Put that down to different circumstances that both manager walked into. It is very difficult to guage as times and circumstances always vary. Wenger joined nearly 30 years ago. Completely different time and circumstances. And the teams each inherited are completely different. Again wenger inherited Lee Dixon, Tony Adams, Winterhurn, Seaman, Parlour, Keown, Bergkamp, Wrighty etc.. About 6 of those players had won a title in 1991 and a few cups in between 1991-1996. They were real men.
Now compare the wimpy, weak players Wenger left Emery and Arteta with.
I will ask you again. How come that Wenger himself failed to win a double with that group of player he assembled before he was sacked in 2018? They dropped from 4th, 5th and 6th consecutively and got him sacked. But you guys expected Emery and Rookie Arteta to turn them into Double Winning players? How come that Wenger (one of the greatest managers) failed to make those players Double winners? He is the one that accumulated that squad in about 6 years. Do you think Wenger would have won us a Double if he was given another 3 seasons until 2020-2021 with them? He couldn’t do it with them 6 years before he was sacked. Could he have won a double if we had stuck with him for another 4 seasons?
We have no idea if Wenger would have done better than 8th.
Much is made of the fact that we made the CL for so many years. However, we were already on a relative decline by the time Wenger left. The football wasn’t great and we were out of the CL. A number of other teams were also on the rise.
Wenger had a much better roster relative to the league at the time compared with Arteta even if the team had underperformed in prior years. The changes that Wenger introduced were revolutionary at the time. However, progress everywhere now means that introducing relatively straightforward changes is unlikely to turn an underperforming team into a championship team.
Well for 22 years he never finished below 6th and finished outside top 4 just twice so yeah I think there’s a argument to say he could have done better then 8th ?
Because whisper it quietly ‘ he’s simply a better manager ‘
Facts are there , no manager has done what what he’s done at Arsenal since
Probably for a start wouldn’t pay players to sit at home ?
The fact is we don’t know. If Wenger had left before we dropped to 6th there would have been an hypothetical argument that if he had remained we would never have dropped out of the CL places.
Whether Wenger would have been a suitable manager for the situation that Arteta took over is very debatable. He had left a rather unbalanced, underperforming team to Emery who was one of Europe’s great managers at the time.
Keeping players who are underperforming and setting a poor example because of certain previous results is not necessarily the sign of a an effective manager. Possibly he would have been able to coax the odd performance from his prima donnas. However, given Wenger’s approach there is little to suggest that he would been able to turn Arsenal into credible PL challengers if he had remained.
Yeah because of Mr Wenger in the years before that since they were last Champions regression was worse then what Arteta inherited
Ready ….
95-96- 5th
94-95 – 12 !!!!
93-94 – 4th
92-93 10th !
91-92 4th
Wenger walks in , introduces training and dietary methods and we win Double
Arteta in same period inherited
5 th
6th
5th
2nd
3rd
And in first full season took us 8th !!!!
Now remember your the one who wanted to compare lol
Wenger walks in the dressing room in Koln when we are playing Borrusia Monchengladbach at halftime, before he even officially became the manager of The Arsenal, and changes the formation of the team. After having the upper hand in the first half, we get knocked out.
Please tell me about the players who turned up late for training and games when Wenger first rocked up ?
Mate it’s common knowledge
Ian Wright had fallen out with previous manager and has admitted his time keeping was poor
Tony Adams has said time keeping was poor
Tony Adams was an alcoholic
Paul Merson had a gambling addiction
Most British players have said there was a drinking culture
Viera literally says it
And Wenger inherited that and was Champions in the first year
Sorry not want you want to hear but that’s a fact lol
Yes Tony was an alcoholic, but he had given up drinking when pre-season training under Rioch had started.
Paul Merson did indeed having a gambling problem, still has to this day.
Virtually every club had a drinking culture in them days, The Arsenal were no different, lol.
We all know the good stuff that Wenger did, but he was lucky that he didn’t walk into a club where some of the players thought they were bigger than the club, lol.
Soz though you were trying to argue Wenger had inherited a successful team lol my mistake
I still think a drinking culture is worse then players having an ego
Plus taking a team from 5th to the Double is factually better then 5th – 8th
Imo, having an inflated ego is much worse, as was proved with Ozil and PEA.
I wouldn’t imagine anyone would disagree with your last paragraph, apart from Wenger didn’t take a team from 5th to the Double, he took the team from 3rd in ’97 to the Double in ’98.
The team he inherited had finished 5th mate and in his first full season won Double
Yes they had finished 5th the season before he arrived, and then, when he became the manager, the finished 3rd. It was the following season, after finishing 3rd, that they won the clubs second Double.
Yeah in his first full season lol
We are agreeing
HD
The fact that Wenger was credited with changing the diet and drinking culture was unique then. Boozing was rife. Diet was poor and he was a visionary
What that proves is – like you said – that all the other clubs hadn’t cottoned on to clean living
For my two cents
Why can’t the Arteta supporters agree that Wenger was a brilliant manager at the time. And why cancan’t the Wenger supporters agree that Arteta is a great manager right now.
They are/were Arsenal managers weren’t they?
I don’t think any of them are Wenger supporters or arteta supporters because arteta have a great respect for Wenger and Wenger is super proud of arteta work as he recommends him. These one’s are just looking for fault in both managers. I think Wenger’s haters and arteta’s haters is more appropriate.
Because Wenger actually did great things that will stand the test of time.
I find it is ridiculousness of an epic proportion that someone will rate Arteta above Wenger when he is just a checkbook manager who has spent a fortune with nothing to show for it 5 years on the job.
Who has rated Mikel above Wenger ?
Who is better Arteta or Wenger?
Who truly inherited a mess?
Who has benefited and elevated the club more?
Who has taken the club to the next level?
You praise Arteta to oblivion and take digs on Wenger every chance you get and you ask that question?
You are rating Arteta above Wenger. It’s not like you try to hide the fact.
By your comparisons that seems to be your suggestion
You can’t compare the two
Again, where have I praised Mikel to oblivion ?
This all started because Dan didn’t tell the full story about what PV4 said about the players at The Arsenal when he first arrived at the club. Dan mentioned how PV4 talked about the culture at the club, but didn’t mention that PV4 also said he was amazed that those same players were amazing in training and in the games. That was what I raised in my first post !
I don’t get the comparison myself or what point is trying to be made ?
But equally we can’t discredit what Wenger did to make Arteta look better
That is the only intent even more so considering nearly all Wenger bashers are ardent Arteta supporters who won’t entertain any criticism against the manager who has spent a fortune and won nothing with his own players after 4 years. ZERO!
Not even a Carabao Cup semi final for the second most valuable squad in the world.
Terrible record in Cups for the 2nd most valuable squad (paid for dearly not developed).
But according to you, when I said previously that Wenger had won nothing with his own players for 9 years, you said that the players that had won silverware at Highbury were Wenger’s players, as he was the manager.
You can’t have it both ways.
The Kroenkes did not give him 800 million to spend. He gave them instead and still managed to stay on top.
That is genius!
The manager you rate so high is bleeding the club and the owner dry with his trial and error method which has yet to bear fruits 5 years on.
And yes Wenger inherited a mess and fixed it. Arteta allegedly inherited a mess and had no ability to fix it hence discarded all of them.
And the characters which Arteta inherited and failed miserably to fix them are like babies conpared to the characters Wenger inherited and managed to fix them.
The reason is they never had full control of the club until Silent Stan bought out the remaining shares from Usmanov and the smaller shareholders. Tim Lewis, Silent Stan’s Corporate Lawyer, gave an in-depth interview with the Daily Telegraph last year about the club. Google it and have a good read of it, it will give the reason why they didn’t spend big at the time.
What did Wenger give them ?
The club is being run the ways it’s always been run, by being self sufficient ! So no one is bleeding anyone dry !
The vast majority of players that Wenger inherited were winners, always gave the all. A big difference to the ones that Mikel inherited, who wouldn’t chase back after losing the ball in a European semi-final, which resulted in the opposition scoring a goal that knocked us out. Or one that was late getting back from a trip abroad, and late for a North London Derby game. Or one whose temperament caused trouble at 2 clubs we sent out on loan to !
In my humble opinion you lost all credibility to me when you brought up Arsenal buying 7 years old Wilshire to deny Wenger credit.
Go on disliking him in peace and I wish you all goodness.
Unfortunately for you Wenger is Arsenal legend and his name will be associated with the club for many years to come.
Your feelings will not change that fact. You may bash him all you want but what will it change? Absolutely nothing.
He has statue at the stadium along with the players he made. Your dislike of him will not cause a scratch or a dent in them.
He will always be in history books and documentaries of Arsenal and English football. Your feelings will not change that either.
I couldn’t care less what you think of my credibility, the fact that you don’t like the truth about buying kids is your problem, not mine.
As for the statues, the only one “he made” was TH14, as TA6 and DB10 were already star players, although Wenger did get even more out of them.
Of course he will be in the history books of The Arsenal, just like many other Arsenal managers.
OT. 99 years ago today, the great Herbert Chapman became the manager of The Arsenal. A man that changed not only English football, but worldwide as well, with his new ideas.
A man, who died prematurely through pneumonia after watching 3 games in 5 cold, rainy days. A man that gave his life for The Arsenal. If it wasn’t for his untimely death, he probably would be our greatest ever manager. Now there’s a man I have the greatest respect for.
Admin Pat, did you see my post to you on the Roy Keane thread ?
Okay I found it.
The reason is that “rape” is a word on my spam filter blacklist so I hadn’t seen it…
Okay and thanks for the reply.
The fact is that most fans rate Wenger and consider him one of the PL great managers.
There are a number of people on this site who consistently denigrate the work that Arteta has done however. You won’t find them agreeing that Arteta is one of the world’s great current managers.
@david
LMAO “
Arteta is one of the world’s great current managers.
😂😂
And everyone wonders why rival fans take the p1ss out of Arsenal fans .
That might be the cringiest thing I’ve read on any Arsenal fan site .
Time for bed for me ,and I would suggest you too buddy lol
Your comment is a disgrace. The only people who find it problematic to consider Arteta a top manager are certain Arsenal fans who for some reason continue to have an axe to grind.
Any current rating of the top 10 managers in world football would have Arteta in it.
David you are right to point that out
This whole argument is a baseless diatribe from a few who wilfully chose to think that those who support Arteta for what he is — which is our current manager who is beginning to show his worth — that we are somehow Wenger haters. It’s a revolting term and is a scurrilous slur
Lols
None of them are Wenger or arteta’s supporters they’re just pessimistic inclined people always looking for fault in others. They never praise but find Joy in criticising. They’re not supporting Wenger, they’re only using him to spite arteta and they’re not supporting arteta they’re only using him to spite Wenger. Really embarrassing trying to use two people that share the same loyalty and vision for our club against each other just to satisfy their pessimistic soul. We just have to deal with them…sigh….
Or ….I simply think Wenger was better lol
Too deep some people
Can’t be great till you win a title in my opinion
If he left tomorrow was he a great Arsenal manager ?
You didn’t read David’s post correctly Dan
The whole argument on this article has descended into chaos in some areas and does nothing to give any sort of respect for our current manager who is now doing well.
It’s all bloody stupid to keep bigging up Wenger now if as Arsenal supporters we didn’t respect his enormous contribution and impact to Arsenal being the club we are today. What’s the point in trying to score points? David said that most Arsenal supporters respected and still do respect Wenger’s contribution but I do wonder why it’s practically impossible for some to give Arteta any credit at all.
Me! I support Arsenal and have done for 60 years and the idea of this pathetic loathing is utterly beyond me
Nah just opinions sue and a bit of fun
The question / statement was
You won’t find them agreeing that Arteta is one of the world’s great current managers.
I like Arteta but he’s not yet a great manager
A disgrace !
Get a grip buddy .
Yes they were AdPat but unfortunately it seems that respect for both Wenger and Arteta in unison is almost impossible in some quarters
But don’t you see, SueP, that your point can be used the other way as well?
I’m actually tired of this c@@p, as we continue to tear the fanbase of the club we all, supposedly, support, continue to tear itself apart.
Why was an article that featured one of the legends of our club, turn into another character assassination of BOTH Arsene and Mikel?!
Arsene’s legacy is written all around the stadium, as is the managers who were successful before him – I hope and believe that Mikel’s achievements will better those of ALL our previous managers, as that will mean our club is successful.
It will happen in my opinion, but to call Mikel one of the best in the world, brings ridicule from other club’s fans.
I take absolute pride in knowing that Arsene, for all his faults as well as successes, recommended Mikel… and Mikel, for all his faults and successes, rates Arsene as one of the most important footballing figures in his life.
Ken1945
David said one of the current greatest
My view is that Arteta’s stock is riding high – currently which is the operative word. No way is he one of the greatest of all time. David is usually pretty hot on grammar but I’ve responded as I saw it to mean – the current crop.
Yes Ken1945
I do understand your point about it going both ways.
“Wenger walks in, introduces training and dietary methods and we win double”
Wenger didn’t ‘win Double’ until his second season, following a ‘part season’ in which he won nothing, as opposed the Arteta’s first ‘part season’ in which he at least won the FA Cup.
And yes, I know Wenger finished third in his first season and qualified for Champions League.
…and Wenger had a three-month advantage on Arteta, taking over officially late September (almost a full season infact) to Arteta’s late December.
And which one is better ? Lol
Third and 1st or 8th and 8th
No comeback from that!
Which one is better, players that played through personal problems and won silverware, or ones that took the mickey ?
In terms of league positions the ones who took the mickey lol
Wengers first 5 years have easily been more impressive then Arteta’s
Exactly, because Wenger had the players that wanted The Arsenal to win, whereas Mikel had players that were either not good enough or just happy with their huge wages.
But they had finished 12 th and 5th before he arrived ?
Yep, finished 12th and came close to setting a record in the CWC. He ended up finishing 6th.
After winning more league tiles and FA Cups then anyone else in our history , getting us to our only CL Final and going unbeaten , improving the training facilities, stadium , playing the best football in our history lol
HD, those players, under AW, who played through their personal problems, were supported by Arsene and the club – those who had personal problems under MA, were banished, left to be devalued, had their contracts ripped up and were given away and the club supported MA.
Does it really matter anyway?
That was then and this is now.
Remind me Dan, in all the years of being a manager/Head Coach, how many European trophies did he win ?
Ken, those players under GG and Wenger gave everything for the club. Could you honestly say the same for the ones Mikel got rid of ?
0
Still the most successful manager in our history .
Sorry that’s not what you want to hear
Let’s examine each player HD.
Aubameyang was seen by MA as captain material and given a contract worth a reported £300 grand plus a week.
Six months later, after breaking the rules many times, including turning up late before his new contract, he was publicly dressed down and never played another game for the club.
Since leaving, he has been critical of Mikel for not supporting him during the time his mother was ill.
Ozil played in every single PL game during MA’s unbeaten 12 match run, before covid interrupted the PL.
Mikel described him as a great player during that run – only to drop him when covid restrictions were lifted, citing footballing reasons.
I question that reasoning and would point to the fact that he was our top earner on yet another reported obscene £300 plus weekly wage – refused to agree a cut in his salary until he knew where the money was going and made a political statement that hurt the club’s image and revenue in China.
Never played another game for Mikel, remained fit and ready to play and has never dissed the club.
I would ask you this HD, was it poor judgement to give Aubemeyang the captaincy, a new four year £300k plus contract, knowing he had already broken club rules?
I believe that Aubameyang was his own worst enemy, had to go and Mikel showed bad judgement in the way he handled the player.
Ozil is a different situation. He certainly didn’t get on with Emery and they clashed over tactics etc.
However, when Mikel came in, he chose to select Ozil again and, as stated above, he became a regular in his team.
If, as you hint, he wasn’t giving everything, why was he playing?
This idea that he wasn’t giving his all, doesn’t stand up, unless you think that Mikel made a mistake in selecting him again and again?
After the pandemic, it became obvious that something within the club had changed and Ozil was on his way out – but can one honestly say it was for footballing reasons?
Did he create the problems that Aubameyang (and Guendouzi) created?
That’s my take on the two major players I think you are talking about, so it seems we have a difference of opinions on the players, the reasons why they were discarded and the role Mikel played.
I concede that both had to leave the club, because the damage was irreparable and, perhaps, one day we’ll find out what really caused those rifts.
We finished 10th and 12th but players gave everything ?
Even though at two admit having serious addictions that impacted their football
Tony Adams got arrested at one point
But that’s worse then Auba and Ozil finishing 6th?
Can you name what they did as bad ?
Sorry HD, but I read how PV was amazed at what those players achieved.
Dan, a great article that shows what Patrick was all about.
At the time, he was THE best in the business and typified everything that AW believed in.
He was also correct in mentioning Diaby, who would have become as good as Patrick himself in my opinion.
AW has often been criticised for not being able to replace PV, but they don’t grow on trees and he discovered yet another gem that, unfortunately, fell victim to a GBH tackle.
Wonderful player, up there with Bergkamp and Henry and I hope he will, one day, grace the Emirates again.
Thanks Dan.
That’s what I alluded to in my first post Ken.
I watched it. PV was impressed because Dixon and winterburn always looked dead in training due to injuries etc but always played great in the matches. He was really impressed by the mentalities of the players in that side – said that side was stronger mentally than the invincibles, actually.
While I agree with Dan on Wenger’s influence in all respects, including diet, i don’t recall PV linking that specifically with the Dixon and winterburn comments – regardless, it does make sense.
Different Times and circumstances for both managers.
It’s absolutely difficult to try comparing managers / players from completely different eras.
What wenger or Arteta started with is not similar. Again different times and different circumstances that they found themselves in.
I some times think to myself: If we were able to time travel and take current managers back to the 1990’s then bring the 1990’s manager into these current time Pep / Klopp / Simeone etc times.. How would say Pep, Arteta, Klopp etc get on in the 1990’s? How would the likes of Fergie, Wenger etc get on in 2024 etc?
It’s like thinking about how Messi and C.Ronaldo would have gotten on in the 1990’s etc..
It would be fascinating. But I do think that the current crop of managers would have an upper hand with the nuanced knowledge / tactical awareness they have adapted..
But we will never know. Will we?
😊
Well one started better then the other ?
That’s factual
Yes I agree with him about Diaby. He was an awesome midfielder. Sadly he had a lot of injuries
Good player, but unfortunately he was injury prone while at Auxerre. He could only manage a handful of games a season, and that’s why they sold him cheaply.
I really rates Diaby. That guy was a talent. But injuries absolutely destroyed his career.
The COMPLETE INSANITY that we’re arguing about Arsene and Mikel, rather than talking about the views of one of our greatest players is unbelievable.
The fact that he “hated” Neville was a view that most Arsenal fans agree with (in my opinion) or why he wasn’t happy after being interviewed for the manager’s position another talking point.
I hated the juvenile AOB and AKB period and the same childish stupidity is starting again.
No wonder the media and other clubs fans laugh at us… we are a pathetic bunch, we really are!!
I will always defend Mr Wenger when he’s being compared to someone yet to achieve anything
It’s offensive
Ask Mr Viera if Mr Wenger was a great manager
I very much doubt we would’ve had all of this arguing Dan if you had bothered to also write what PV4 had said about how the players were in training and the games, but no, you conveniently left that bit out.
Arguing ?
It’s a football opinion site lol
And I did , he said that Lee Dixon and Nigel Winturburn were great in games but only 20 percent cent of that in training
As do I Dan and you know that.
What I find ridiculous is the comparison with what each manager has achieved.
We could also ask Odegaard what he thinks of Mr Arteta, Tony Adams what he thought of GG and Peter Storey what he thought of Bertie Mee… would we then compare those four managers?
I know, without any doubt whatsoever, that we wouldn’t be the club we are today without Arsene Wenger and the only time I get involved, is when falsehoods about him and / or his achievements are involved.
Nobody has denied Wenger’s greatness.That’s a given. He came to Arsenal with twelve years managerial experience and had early and continuing success..
Yet you continuously put down and take the piss out a great young manager/coach who won an FA Cup at his first attempt and twice finished second to the biggest load of cheats in Premier League history.
I find that offensive.
Jax
And so it continues and for the life of me I can’t understand why.
It has almost become an act of heresy to say that the last knockings of AW’s illustrious Arsenal career were not at good as the earlier years and yet spew forth about all of Arteta’s “shortcomings” when we are building and improving.
SueP, I meant to link my comment below to you as a reply😜
Who’s taking the ……?
I generally like Arteta
But I can’t make up things that are not true
You ‘generally like’ Arteta’? I’ll quote you on that sometime Dan😂. And you do take the piss, especially so when mentioning him and giving your irritating lols🙄.
And I agree, let’s have no untruths about any of them.
Can you give examples where I have taken the …..
Or just said something you don’t like
Because there is a difference
On this thread your first comment when comparing Wenger & Arteta’s first full seasons, you finished by saying
“Arteta first full season took us 8th lol.” For me that’s a sniggering put down. Especially so as Wenger was a manager/coach with twelve years experience to rookie Arteta’s just a season and a half.
Because someone was making the comparison
But saying Arteta finished 8th isn’t taking the …….
As in saying Mr Wenger should have done better in Europe isnt taking the….
That’s just factual
What you mean and it’s a reflection on society is I don’t like hearing we finished 8th so can you not say that
Let me stress , last couple of seasons Arteta had done a good job , we are on the rise and I would keep him but he’s not a great manager yet
And if anyone compares him with Mr Wenger I willl point out the truth
As I will. I dont hold it against anyone supporting Arteta to their heart content or criticising Wenger the way they see fit.
The issue I have is framing things by some ardent Arteta supporters in a way trying to make Arteta look better than Wenger.
Arteta inherited a mess while Wenger inherited world class players and team? Give me a break!
Arsenal bought 4 year olds to deny credit for Wenger developing them? Nonsense! This is a sad attempt trying to defend Arteta lack of youth promotion.
Talking down on the achievement of the invincibles and cheer Man city highest points instead? How low can one go?
Refusing to give Wenger credit for the construction of the AG stadium and give credit to construction company instead? Laughable!
Some who won’t stand criticism against Arteta go overboard with undeserved credit to him. Two days ago one even gave Arteta credit for the development of Rice and Saliba!!!!
Did Wilshere get straight into the first team when he was 7 years old from Luton? Unbelievable argument!
Until Arteta win (or buys his way to success) big things regularly he is just a pupil compared to the professor that was Wenger.
There’s ALWAYS going to be comparisons…Graham/Wenger/Arteta…and so there should be…and while I’ve seen suggestions that Graham’s achievements exceeded Wengers, I’m sure nobody has even hinted that Arteta is currently better than either.
My own personal hope is that Arteta has it in him to go right to the very top at club level.
We’re lucky to have him at Arsenal.
Well said Jax
Looks like I’m suspended, so I’ll gracefully take my leave.
Really?
Hopefully not the red card that befell Jon Fox
Eh?
Nothing to do with me that one. I’m blaming a glitch as I can’t see anything wrong with your posts…
Ahh I can now. The word “rookie” was on my comment blacklist after a spate of it being used as a put-down…