REGRESSION VERSUS PROGRESSION – BUT WHICH WAY ROUND??? by Ken1945
During a recent post on JustArsenal, it was claimed that under AW, the club had regressed for the last seven to eight seasons and, under MA, there were signs of a slow progression from those humiliating days under said AW.
Now these claims, were not backed up with any facts or figures, so I promised to re-produce an article previously submitted and discussed on JA and then look more closely at exactly what AW achieved and compare these facts with what MA has achieved to date:
So, for the record, here are Wenger’s factual figures from the 11/12 season, up and until he left the club in 2017/18.
PL Finish and points obtained:
11/12 – 3 / 70
12/13 – 4 / 73
13/14 – 4 / 79
14/15 – 3 / 75
15/16 – 2 / 71
16/17 – 5 / 75
17/18 – 6 / 63
These final positions show that, if there was regression, it was only in the last two season and, points-wise, consistent up and until that last season.
In fact, from the 13/14 season, we were PROGRESSING from 4th to 2nd.
FA Cup
11/12 – 5th round
12/13 – 5th round
13/14 – Won the Cup
14/15 – Won the Cup
15/16 – 6th round
16/17 – Won the Cup
17/18 – 3rd round
These final results are part of the record/legacy that shows AW never lost a 3rd round match until his last season and from the 12/13 season IMPROVED and/or EQUALLED these amazing set of results…so, once again, no signs of REGRESSION…. unless not winning the cup in 15/16 counts and the 3rd round knockout in 17/18 shows “YEARS OF REGRESSION?”.
Champions League.
11/12 – KO stage
12/13 – KO stage
13/14 – KO stage
14/15 – KO stage
15/16 – KO stage
16/17 – KO stage
EUROPA LEAGUE
17/18 – SF stage
These CL stats show no sign of REGRESSION, being the most consistent set of figures of the three competitions…until, once again, his final season, where of course, he guided us to a European semi-final and we were only playing in that competition, because we missed out by one point on finishing in the top four for the 21st consecutive season – unrivalled in the PL.
Let’s just remember, we were consistently being recognised as one of the top sixteen clubs in European football, fifteen years on the trot!!!
As a footnote to Wenger’s team contribution to the CL stats, we are one of the top ten clubs with regards to “Goals Scored” – I’m sure someone will look up where we stand regarding “Goals Against!!!”
Now, I want to compare these and other factors, with the MA stats, readily available for everyone to access and study.
EPL.
During AW’s regression years, he lost 12 of his 126 home games.
During MA’s progression he has lost 12 of his 47 home games with three games left.
During AW’s regression years his goals against were 37-41-38-36-44-51.
During MA’s progression his goals against were / are 48-39-37 with 7 games left.
During AW’s regression years his goals for were 72-68-71-65-77-74.
During MA’s progression his goals for were / are 56-55 and 45 with seven games left.
During AW’s regression years he won 21-24-22-20-23-19 games.
During MA’s progression he won 14-18 and 17 with seven games left.
During AW’s regression years he lost 7-7-7-7-9-13 games.
During MA’s progression he lost 10-13 and 11 with seven games left.
During AW’s regression his points total was 73-79-75-71-75-63
During MA’s progression his points tally was 56-61 and 54 with seven games left.
Under MA, we had the worst finish in over 25 years (8th) a trend that continued into the next season.
Under MA, we have lost three consecutive matches in the PL twice in one season.
Under MA, we made our worst start in our 118-year history on 22.8.2021.
Under MA, we have beaten Burnley and Palace once in 5 games- lost 3 out of 4 against Everton and all of his five games against Man. City.
Under MA, the lowest points gained after 25 games since….1913!!!!
I won’t go into the FA cup record under MA, except to say that, after winning it in magnificent style with the “dross players” he inherited, he proceeded to disband that squad and has the record of being knocked out in the 4th and 3rd round since then.
Europe? Having beaten Olympiacos 1-0 away, we were defeated at home 2-1 in the Europa League…not the QF of the CL….but the last 32 of the Europa leagues.
Since then, we have had no European football.
Now, some may say I have an agenda against Mikel Arteta – I have not.
I see him as a decent, honourable, truthful person, who, unfortunately, is out of his depth.
Neither do I believe that Arsene Wenger was the second coming – far from it. He made plenty of mistakes, but it is the record that the club supplies and what I see and hear… that is what I base my thoughts on.
What I get really sick and tired off, is reading how MA is taking us forward, righting the wrongs of AW and showing the way to progress…after those so called last 7/8 years of humiliating football under Le Prof.
Reading the comments of those who slagged AW off for years and then read those same fans accuse me of not supporting the club or manager, when I’m just trying to point out what is going on at present, is bordering on the insane!!!
Hypocrites really doesn’t come into it, and the most laughable thing to have been said is that we are slowly progressing.
Can someone explain to me how the results we have from MA can be seen to show those green shoots of recovery? Don’t compare AW if you so wish and analyze Mikel’s contribution and results as our manager versus our history as a club.
We are at a very awkward crossroad, and we are being led down the wrong way… in my humble opinion.
ken1945
N.B. All the facts and figures are in the Official Handbook for 2018/19 and in Google presentations by fellow Arsenal supporters. My thanks to one and all.
If I have made any mistakes, like saying three doubles when I meant three PL titles recently, it is not because I am misleading anyone or making false claims…It’s just a genuine mistake.
COYG!
Ken you are going to upset a lot of MA fans (not necessarily Arsenal fans) with the facts presented.
Only short sighted people can possibly claim progress.
Cheers Ken
Umm, what on Earth do you mean by “a lot of MA fans (not necessarily Arsenal fans)”.
Are you saying that anyone who supports Arteta is not an Arsenal fan? If so, you need to retract that ridiculous assertion…
Dont know what you mean admin, Garth Crooks is an Arteta fan.
Admin “Not necessarily” does not encompass everyone as you are incorrectly suggesting….it means a some fans.
Now if I had said “MA fans (that can’t be Arsenal fans)” then what you are insinuating would be true.
There’s only 1 ridiculous assertion in the comments above, and it’s not mine.
I think you mean to say ‘fanboy’. I’m a MA fan but not a fanboy. I’m a fan of his and think he has potential to be a great coach but a fanboy is one who simply prefers not to be truthful about the team because of the coach. The same can be said for haters. Its like they pick a side so when things don’t go the way they see it they find it difficult to change their stance because it would make them look weak which is what I don’t get.
Yes what I mean is a MA fan over and above an Arsenal fan, which some term fanboy.
I have no problem with people supporting the manager but when that support is to the detriment of the club then I can’t understand that.
Agreed it goes both ways yes
I think, not the whole picture has been addressed.
Wenger’s regression was very much also the fact, we went from being a club, which was considered to be serious title candidate in the PL to a club, which for so many year’s couldn’t mount a serious title challenge. It is not just about top 4.
I am not convinced Arteta is the right man. But I do think the current regime have outlined a plan, which potentially could make us title challengers again.
At least that is very different from the previous 8-10 year’s, where it seemed to me, there was no overall plan and strategy, except to expect Wenger to get the “magic” back.
Only his time had clearly passed.
Anders, sorry but you missed the point – I was challenging the claim that regression under AW had become progression under MA – hence the figures for comparison… and then I included some of the negative facts surrounding MA’s time.
Ken1945
I get your point, but maybe you don’t get mine ? 😉
Although we may have been in top 4 for many years under Wenger, we were in fact slipping further and and further away from the title, and there didn’t seem to be a plan.
Personally, I see it as progress, we seem to have a serious plan to build on a young core, which may become title challengers in the future.
I certainly don’t see anyone outlining a better plan, but the plan is not dependent on Arteta IMO.
Sorry to say mate there is no plan, just a bit of players banded who he knows will do his Arteta’s bidding. One thing I hope I’m corrected if wrong a bit of digressing, which of the academy players can you testify has been blooded as much as 45mins totally by Arteta since he came in because if memory serves me right, Saka, Martinelli, Guendozi, Nketiah(Emery’s reign), ESR(was given opportunity by the bald old time player temporary coach. So no one has been blooded by Arteta yet he has bought Cedric, Tomi, White, Gabby,Tavares, tall spainard on loan and Ramsdale, even renewed David Luiz, yet we are conceding goals at alarming rate. He also got Partey, Odegaard, lokonga, and yet without Partey we’re spineless and losing games left ,right and center. Something seems wrong we don’t create enough chances and thus don’t score enough goals so plans haven’t been going according to expectations and we might still loss even Europa league spot if we continue on this tragectory. So Arteta should sit or face the sack
To me it seems there now is a plan to build a young team for the future, and I like that idea.
Whether Arteta is the right man to manage that team is another matter.
Kudos to this writer for putting this out. Even though I don’t know how true some of the stats are , but you don’t need to search too long to know some of them are real.
This is why the article that says Arsenal has progress under Arteta is very wrong in my opinion.
In fact there are know fact to back it up.
The best caption for that article would have been to show how Arteta has progress as a coach , but not that he has made a progress on the team.
Last I remember he wasn’t higher to come and practice but if there’s anything he took the team backward and not forward.
And to most people that see progress, the progress lies in where it doesn’t matter the most.
Like saying we have the youngest team in the league.
We have process.
We cleared the deadwood.
We reduce wages.
But at the end of the day you have nothing to show for it where it matter the most, then it is pointless. Especially for a bit club like Arsenal.
Kaay, you have a valid point when you refer to the EPL table and results from the cups. Ken, as usual puts forth a very detailed explanation from his point of view, backed with facts, which is always a good read. But, there are the small aspects which are left out as usual, one being the attitude of the players, past and present and their feelings/commitment to the club which is as essential as the skill . Take for an example, Gallas squatting on the pitch, Sanchez giggling on the bench when we conceded, RVP screaming at Mr. Wenger during a substitution, Ozil walking out at a snail’s pace when we desperately needed a goal or two at Baku, PEA joking after a loss, all these attitude problems bring down the team morale and the team which is the first fix Mikel has attended to. Second, with the enormous wage bill and no returns was dragging the club into losses and no club can sustain losses in the long run and still be competitive. We and ManU, two iconic clubs facing the same issues of overpaid underperforming players with similar results. Half of Utd’s team will be gone once Erik takes over and should be rightly so for the sake of the game and Mikel has done the same. Build strong foundations for future progress. Take the case of Klopp, joined Pool in 2015, won the UCL in 2019 and the league in 2020. Football isn’t instant coffee pals!
Here we have THE classic “nothing about Arteta” reply.
Who, when discussing where the green shoots of MA’s work are supposed to be, completely ignores any reference to him and tries to use the old adage of the best form of defence is to attack.
I couldn’t care less what Gakkas, Ozil or juda van persie did…. they are history.
What I care about is what Guendouzi, Saliba, Lacs, Aubameyang, Mavs etc are saying and, hopefully, discuss ANY of the factual points regarding Mikel that I gave as examples.
Don’t shoot the messenger LC, discuss the current status of the club.
Hello Ken, well, I’m not shooting the messenger as I appreciated your analysis in my opening comments. My point of view may differ, but what I like about Mikel is that he is putting systems snd discipline in place which is the foundation for success. When it suits, Ozil and pals are history, sometimes some crimp about the way there were booted out. Coming back to your point, Saliba and Guendozi were utter rubbish against PSG (who are way behind Pool and City) and some sites rated them a poor5. Young lads with trunks full of ego, not suited for our club. Honest appeal to back Mikel and his vision. Haditnot been for injuries, we would be top4. Arsenal needs top players. Try giving our Hamilton a Haas and demand he wins the drivers/constructors championships.
So saliba and Gouendouzi was “rubbish” against PSG, your opinion and talk about cherry picking. Well we were rubbish against Palace, Brighton and Southampton and so was our manager, especially his tactics and team choice. GET SOME PERSPECTIVE!!!!!!
It’s just not fair comparing boy wonder to batman. Arteta is out of his depth and to take arsenal forward he will have to change tact, which I don’t see happening. He probably was on the brink of getting the sack last year against Chelsea and ESR saved his job with a total display against Chelsea. I wonder who will save his job this time. Can’t see him beating Chelsea or man u, but then again football always throw us surprises.
Oh yeah!! And yet again ESR has showed up for him alongside Nketiah and Saka.
Building anything of value takes time. Let us think long-term and employ patience both in our judgment (of Arteta) and expectations (of the team).
Its the youngest team in the PL. Sacking managers out of impatience doesn’t make you better in the long term (ManU anyone?).
We were impatient with Emery but see how his ideology has revamped Villaal. You can now see what he had in mind for us being expressed at Villareal. The players in our current team who are holding us up were blooded by the same Unai Emery.
If Arteta had no plan, he’d never be Arsenal manager and from the looks, he is getting done with the foundations (i.e the culture and attitude of the team). Next come the pillars and the walls.
Wish him well because it is not an easy task at all. If any one of us fans could’ve done a better job, we would be on that seat.
Let’s hope for the best in our remaining cup finals.
COYG!!
Ken, i thank you for all the work you put into the article and expose the myth that is Arteta love. The truth is we all want Arteta to succeed but some of us for many a month haven’t been taken in by the over hype of his achievements or lack of. I just hope Josh reads it, it is great reading. So really we haven’t improved at all but then some of us realists knew that.
I think also you could have gone into the return we are getting for every £ spent those seasons in comparison. I know Arteta wont look good on that either. He isnt great value for money at all.
ARTETA ARE DESTROYING OUR CLUB!!
Apt! I didn’t believe the hype. Couldn’t see the progress. First thing first, a team on the upward must be able to score goals.
This is my projection,my opinion anyway, Martinelli and Saka would be prized away if we persist with Arteta.
Both players would have grown past their current stage if handled by a good coach.
Well made points – can’t really argue. I personally think that we were on a downward trajectory with AW, but he was also papering over some of the cracks which were inevitably further exposed by the managers that followed – that’s both a compliment to AW and a knock against him.
And that’s not to say MA has done a great job so far – I think turning arsenal around is an enormous job, which he may not be capable of
I can’t see the point of comparing a man at the beginning of his managerial journey with one who was nearer the end and had already tasted incredible success
I’m far from anti Wenger; I just don’t get the constant comparisons. To me, he went due to his inability to stay in the top4 – as an elite manager should. Arteta hasn’t got there yet as a relative newcomer (2+ years) and may never do so either.
I’d have thought comparing AW to Fergie was more to the point as they were around during the same period
Sue I believe the point being made is that Artetas progress is not actual progress…maybe personally yes he is but it’s not MAFC, it’s AFC.
So the point is that the club has not progressed which many are claiming we have.
I believe that SueP makes a very valid point – why make comparisons in the first place?
However, if one doesn’t challenge those comparisons with facts, they tend to become factual without any basis of credibility.
That is why I have written this article.
Interesting to see the word “dullard” being used – the last time I saw that on JA, was when Jon Fox used it to describe anyone who disagreed with his views…. isn’t that right Jon?
Sue P I DO see the point, but from Kens view. KEN is obsessed, like no other Gooner is to the same degree, with “protecting” Wengers legacy, which explains why he researched this article.
Whenever there is an in depth article about WENGERS TIME, YOU CAN BE ALMOST CERTAIN IT WILL BE KENS.
Most of us now prefer to live in the present though. I certainly do anyway!
I also accept it is very unlikely we at Arsenal will again see another first decade like WENGERS. I do not think it is healthy for our mental peace of mind, or wise either, even to expect it, as sadly so many seem to do all the time.
Jon, the kettle calling and all that!!!
Not once have you mentioned Mikel Arteta in your reply – it’s all about AW and how you see my defence of him.
Why not address the many facts that I have put forward regarding our present manager?
Is that possible for you to do?
I’ll refrain from any personal insults and /or attacks, as they really are childish and boring…. over to you.
Furthermore Jon, the current poll figures are very interesting, wouldn’t you say?
Ken, Poll figures are entirely predictable, given the many on this site who are fickle, disloyal and far too demanding all the time.
I am not in the least surprised at football fans , in this case Gooners, so quickly turning against MA after a short injury plagued run of bad results.
FANS IN GENERAL ARE EXTREMELY FICKLE AND GOONERS ARE NOT EXCEPTIONS.
IN FACT. WE ARE WIDELY CONSIDERED THROUGHOUT FOOTBALL AS THE MOST TOXIC. AFTV is not alone in being toxic!
As for your umpteenth SAME OLD question requesting what you call my opinion on ” the facts” , I have answered those questions so VERY many times – though you have constantly ignored my reasons (or simply chosen to pretend not to have seen them).
Unlike Reggie, DK and Co, I will NOT spew out the same boring old post a thousand times and on for ever more.
I have a life outside AFC and have better things to do then constantly repeating my reasons to those, such as yourself, who will never accept them, or accept that I can sincerely believe them.
This is not meant to insult you but TBH Ken, I could not give a damn what you think of me and my opinions!
You might not like it but myself and probably a lot of readers appreciate the fact that the writer did his job properly,by doing his research to back up his claims/facts.Surely Jon, as a writer you should be able to appreciate the time and efforts that Ken put in no??well I do!
Sue P, its not about wenger, it about the perceived progress. Using the yardstick of the years wenger was manager to prove or disprove progress should have no bearing on how long wenger was manager and how short a career Arteta has. Its about capability, nothing to do with inexperience or experience. We cant wait for Arteta to gain experience at Arsenal because that would be folly, when we dont know if he is going to prove capable after his probation period. Its about wether he is doing a good job or not. Comparing him to someone who got sacked and i include Emery in that, he hasn’t done better. And ken kindly tried to show that without ranting but actual facts and figures.
Well thank you for trying to explain that to me then Reggie.
I clearly don’t get the point of the argument then and this makes me a dullard. In the simplest terms, AW regressed after failing to finish in the top4 for two years. MA will have regressed if he fails to finish above 8th this season. Is there another explanation?
Like Jon Fox above, I know we had some fantastic years under Wenger – I thought it would never, and should never end. It did and it is a painful process, if I dare use the word, to build up again from a lower base.
You used the word capable. Was Wenger capable of bringing the club back into a top4 position which I think is a poignant question to ask.
Sue P, no i dont think he was in the end and that was why he was sacked. We have regressed, oops sorry progressed under Arteta and got worse figures, everywhere you look. And i have grave doubts Arteta can get us 4th, so he isn’t looking upto it either. I also dont think we should be looking at the excuse he is a new manager, that isnt helpful. Its wether he is a capable manager, we should be looking at.
Ken did a great job of presenting or perhaps portraying a “standard” for the club. We should be challenging for top 4 every year, and present in some sort of European football at a minimum.
We are a top 6 club in England no doubt, and should be fighting for fourth every year, with how money has changed the league.
Wenger has set a standard of what’s possible if proper management (like a Dein) and a competent manager are supported by an ambitious owner.
I’m not saying £150 million every Summer, but 1 or 2 young talented players should have added every Summer.
Evaluations before Summer investments; upgrade a position or 2, selling a good player to bring in better.
£40-£50 million invested every Summer is not outrageous for a club like Arsenal.
Sell off deadwood, sell a player and upgrade, player sales to fund new players. Invest in proper scouts.
I don’t feel the business evaluation side is handled as well as it should be. Players have to check boxes, why not directors and management?
Yes we must wait for Arteta because the current football landscape has changed by miles.
I bet you, Wenger only succeeded due to the ignorance of other clubs as at the time he took charge of Arsenal team (Player diet, training routines, buying foreign players, style of play, club financial buoyancy etc). A lot of PL clubs now know and can do all of those.
Let’s face it, IF WENGER WERE ARTETA AND ARTETA WAS WENGER, and Wenger was the younger manager who just took over as in Arteta’s case (2019/2020), are you sure Arsenal would be in a better position now?
I’ve said this here and I’ll say it again that if Arsenal do not finish in top 4 then the club has regressed since the sacking of Wenger. This is because in Wenger’s final years he was consistent in getting top 4 or 4th place and only dropped out when there was a proper threat to the 4th position. This theory is also proven right because in 15/16 Arsenal finished 2nd and for me the only reason why we finished there is because the clubs to occupy 2nd and 3rd were off form. This was confirmed as we weren’t top 3 the next season(16/17) and we even fell out of top 4 as at the time Liverpool was now on a proper resurgence. I count the next season(17/18) as an outlier because we were seriously bad away from home and I expect Wenger to have improved that. If Emery finished 5th then Wenger easily gets top in 18/19 over Sarri or Poch who were bad in that season and Emery could’ve gotten 4th too. In 19/20 I also tip Wenger to finish 4th over Lampard and in 20/21 I expect him to get 4th over Chelsea due to how poor they begun. I may sound bias but my point is for him to drop out of 4th there had to be a proper threat to that place. Its all theories and for me he should’ve left in 2008.
Wenger set the bar he failed to reach himself. Every manager that cant reach that, is deemed a failure and should be replaced. Why should we look at Arteta any different. He definitely isnt the next coming!!
We need him to finish in the top 4 man. Spurs and Man Utd are so weak this season. Even Leicester and West Ham are inconsistent. I was thinking throughout all the confusion of all these teams, we would be doing our best to secure that 4th spot but we keep on backsliding. Next season will be tougher so we need to get more serious.
I see that for our worst start to a season in our history you’re going the first 2 games. Interesting that you didn’t mention covid, injuries and the FIFA ruling for the lack of players for our 1st game at Brentford. Also if you had gone on our first 4 games it would’ve been the 1912/13 season, when in the only time in our long history we were relegated.
Other than that it’s quite a good read.
So when poor stats are listed, it’s due to covid, injuries, lack of experience, thin squad, young squad.
Ok all these list are absolutely true, but how come this excuses never existed when we won the FA cup by the so called deadwood players, but ever since the deadwood players are being cleared out, we haven’t smell a trophy in two years and about to be out of the Ucl and likely Europa in two years in a row after spending and clearing the deadwood??
Well Herr Drier, at least you have addressed one of the Arteta points I raised!!
I take your point regarding covid, but to have been totally outplayed by Brentford? Nah, not for me… just like there was no excuse when Hull outplayed us at the Emirates under Wenger.
You are as long in the tooth as I am, so you know that the word “Consistentency” is the key.
We are where we are now, because of all the inconsistencies that have been a pattern of Mikel’s work.
The game against our noisy neighbours had me believing that he had, finally, after four awful years, brought the players and fans together in a performance that reminded me of the best Wenger served up.
Now, we swing from one game to the next, without any idea what we will be seeing.
Nothing to do with anyone else, it’s completely his squad, his tactics, his style and his responsibility and that’s my point.
Ken1945 I totally agree that we were outplayed at Brentford, but surely missing 4 first team players must come into the equation.
I would say it’s mostly his squad, but it’s not his completed squad yet. That I reckon will come in the Summer.
So, who is not one of his first team players, followed by his squad players?
Auba, Laca, Partey and Gabriel were all missing at Brentford.
You didn’t answer my question though….. which of the players aren’t his in the first team and then the squad?
Well going on the Brentford game, which is what you brought up, it would be easier to say who were his players at that time. White, Mari, Sambi, Tavares, and Cedric.
I’m clearly not expressing myself properly – with the players that MA now has within his 25 man squad, who are you saying are not his players?
Leno, Okonkwo, Tierney, Gabriel, Holding, Xhaka, Saka, Smith Rowe, Elneny, Lacazette, Pepe, Nketiah, Martinelli.
That’s 13 players in this season’s squad, without adding any players from the U23 squad.
So are you saying that you expect him to get rid of the players you mention in order to have his own 25 players?
I count seven who have been part of his rebuild, as you put it, are you being serious?
So will MA never be accountable while Saka, ESR and Martinelli are at The Arsenal?
The fact that he gave Xhaka a new contract dissolves him of any responsibility?
You have completely lost me I’m afraid.
Ken1945 obviously he would have to get rid of them to have his own players, as those who I have named weren’t his signings.
Just want to say that maybe you’re right maybe you’re not.
Certain things are never accurate no matter how hard we try.
but I hope you factored in that in the timeframe of comparison Wenger had ready spent over 15 years at Arsenal and over 20 years in management/coaching?
I hope you also factored in the fact that the quality of opposition at the time of Wenger is not the same as today? In fact football has improved generally?
In fact every team has improved significantly
I hope you factored in the fact that Arteta has not even stayed for up to 3 Seasons yet this is just his second full season?
I hope you factored in the fact that he is actually inexperienced compared to wenger at this point?
the truth is that, fans are impatient these days, if not you have witnessed for yourself what the team can do, how they play when they are all fit.
The truth remains that a team is only as strong as its weakest link. ever since we lost Tommy, then Kieran and finally Partey, the team had lost its core. so , it will be quite unfair to blame the teams on-field failings on Arteta entirely.
yes summit point to the fact that it was the club and attacked her that decided not to sign players in the transfer window or decided to let go of the ones were hard, but I think we have forgotten that those were the same set of players who made charity of fans had classified as mediocre. Those Were the same set of players fans equally said should be nowhere near the team. so if the club gets an opportunity to offload those same set of players or dead woods to be precise, should it have held on to the summer transfer window and bear the cost of paying their weekly wages where the fact that they would eventually get gametime or not is a gamble?
There are many more of these questions to be asked. But we can never get the full picture.
Or dont ask any questions, just keep making up excuses, while we are not progressing for even longer.
So Arteta should not be compared to Wenger because of difference in length of managerial careers? As a former player himself, did Arteta consider the fact that Guendouzi was young and needed to be taught? Same Guendouzi is being described as mature by his current coach. Arteta should also be cast away to mature as a manager cos football is a result oriented sport and Arsenal is too big a club to use for experiments. If all was going well at the club, there won’t have been a managerial position to be filled in the first place. So he was employed to fix those same issues while being paid obscene amounts of money. So why the constant excuses? At Chelsea, no manager can make excuses. That’s why they have been a top club, winning 5 EPL titles, 2 UCL trophies an UEL and club world cup trophies. Keep making excuses for Arteta while we drown
Pal Dardai, the former manager of Hungary and manager of Hertha Berlin, who has 7 years of managerial experience, also said Guendouzi has attitude problems and dropped him from the Hertha squad. So obviously it’s not down to a managers experience, more to do with the player.
WHAT!!!!!!!
Comprehension problem ?
NO!!!!! Incredulity problems.
Fine, stay blinkered then.
Ha ha ha ha ha😂😂 did YOU really say blinkered.
Yep, well done for finally being able to comprehend the written word 👏👏👏
@Snow. Fans wanted Xhaka gone long time but he’s still here. Your facts are really not facts but opinions. on what basis football have improved? These players that if you blow too hard on them they drop to the ground screaming. Arteta knew he didn’t sign up to get years to get the job right. You start getting it right from day one, which in my opinion haven’t been the case. The team haven’t been playing good two season now. The only plaudit that Arteta get is that he won the Fa Cup in a short space of time when most opposition didn’t get enough time to analyse his system of play and poke lots of flaws in it. So kudos to him for winning the FA cup but he’s just a one hit wonder.
yes, it was Club and Arteta that decided to not sign in the january window and also let the excess we had go, but i think we have forgotten it was this same set of players the fans classified as mediocre, dead woods, average..etc. and should be nowhere near the team. the Club had the opportunity to offload them rather than keep them till the summer which on both sides is a gamble.
there are may questions to be asked and more to answer. we can never get the full picture
sorry about the typos
Wow! I read this article, and can only wonder if the writer works for the FDA or CDC over in America.
Major issues with this article
-Zero context
-Detailed breakdown of some figures missing
-Huge chunks of data not even available
Context
Wenger didn’t join Arsenal in the 2011/12 season. At that point, he’d been at the club for a whopping 15 years, and had plenty of experience at other clubs as well.! Every player was his. The culture was of his making. So any possible issues going into that season, and future seasons, Wenger, along with some others, was hugely responsible for. When Arteta took over, the club was in an absolute mess, not one player was his, and it was his very first job in management.
Not only did Arteta have to rebuild from the ground up in a terribly run club, he has also been working in a more competitive environment. This data set starts from the 2011/12 season, when Ferguson and Wenger were the most experienced managers in the PL, and where it was only Arsenal , Chelsea, and Utd as the real big boys.
Comparing Wenger to Arteta, is like comparing chalk and cheese!
Detailed breakdown of some figures missing
The most glaring issue here are the stats for the CL, where the writer outright lies, but gets away with it because of the way the stats are presented, and fact he’s left out CL data. Quote “These CL stats show no sign of REGRESSION”, and on the face of it, it seems he is right. 11/12 – 16/17 we did exit the CL at the KO stage for each of those seasons. But simply saying KO stage every season is about as vague as it gets!
What is not pointed out is that for each of those seasons, we were knocked in the last 16. Technically no regression, but zero progress, and actually, consistently unacceptable results in the CL. Qualifying from pretty easy groups every season for a club the size of Arsenal, and with Wenger’s experience, is not much of an achievement. Then losing EVERY time you’re in your first highly pressurized situation in the KO phases, is in my eyes, regression! And there is a clear regression when comparing Wenger against his own previous Arsenal CL stats (data which the writer left out).
Another Wenger European stat I was chuckle at is how many CL qualifications in a row Wenger achieved. That stat means absolutely nothing! What is actually important, is what are doing once qualified? NO European wins, only one CL final, and only two CL semi-finals.
On top of that, Arteta got to the EL last 32, then the SF in his next season. So a clear and obvious progression.
Huge chunks of data not even available
What I find most interesting, is the starting point of the data. 2011/12 season. The facts are that at the start of that season, we were 6 years without a trophy (any other manager at any top club would have been sacked by then by the way), and 7 years since we won the league, and 6 years since we were runners-up. I would say going into the 2011/12 season we were deep into a regression already at that point, yet no data for it?
It may look on the surface as if I have gone in a bit hard on Wenger on this one, but that’s not it. I am merely pointing out the many flaws in this article, and that it clearly has a bias to it.
I love the guy for everything he did for the club, and the style of football I was treated to, but I will not shy away from the facts. Wenger played a major role in sustained period of success, and progress, followed by a slightly longer period of failure and regression, unseen at any football ever I think!
Poorly presented article, with shocking context and bias, and as I said earlier “Comparing Wenger to Arteta, is like comparing chalk and cheese!”
Very good post JonBo. As you said, 6 years without a trophy, that alone has seen every post war manager fired. Wenger is the only Arsenal manager in history to not win a trophy in 9 years. As for the CL, in 19 years he only won 8 ko ties !
Thank you Herr, and I know. Like I said, love what Wenger did for the club, but how he lasted that long without a trophy at a top club is absolutely remarkable!
Jonbo I think you’ve missed the whole point of the article! Like completely missed it.
The article is not comparing the two managers but comparing how the club was doing in each period while they were in charge and what was considered successful during those periods.
Long story short = Arsenal’s failing years at the end of Wengers reign were better than our “good” form and progess this season.
Thank you so much PJ-SA
You’ll live long
Please Jonbo I’ll love to see your reply on this
PJ, people with half a brain would realise Ken wasn’t compairing wenger to Arteta but their records of fact.
3 years of Mikel
55 goals scored 45 goals conceded
61 points and 6-8th in the table.
That is completly stagnant!
4th or bust.
Aaron 👍👍
So after all the “context” you’ve presented, has the club improved under Arteta? How come we are now okay with accepting lower league positions than the worst Wenger years and call it progress? He has a lot of backing (which Emery only dreamed of) and holds absolute powers which no other manager in any club currently can have and yet we are told:
Arteta is new in management
He has the youngest squad
He inherited deadwood
COVID
Injuries
Thin squad
He doesn’t have his own CF
Xhaka is still in the squad
Club was in a mess when he arrived
Aubameyang wanted to go to Barca
Top four was never the target
The process will take a century to complete
America bombed Hiroshima
Zombie apocalypse
Bla bla bla…
The excuses will never end. Football is extremely result oriented and if you cannot get results, then you’ve got no use as of yet, especially in the EPL
You call it excuses, others call it facts.
HD and some call it delusional but hey eventually the Arteta in brigade or the Arteta out brigade will be right let’s see what happens.
Facts are what I have presented, unless someone can tell me otherwise?
Enlarge on those facts if one wants to, but facts they are.
Ken1945, my post was in reply to dgr8xt.
Thought he gave it context, “regression” of Wenger when many wanted him sacked and “progression” under Arteta and whether he gets sacked.
What many thought “not good enough” compared to “progress” and Ken provided goals, points, finishes.
I’d also add that the table doesn’t lie.
Good evening Jonbo.
Can I ask you to look at my second last paragraph, where I say don’t just compare Wenger to Arteta, just compare Arteta to the club’s history….. or words to that effect?
I knew that some would try to twist my words /facts around to deflect Mikels work.
What has the fact that AW won only eight KO ties, got to do with the success or failure of MA?
AW’s gone and, as MA lost his one and only two legged European tie, we can’t compare can we?!?!?
Secondly, it was you who stated seven to eight years, not me.
It was you who stated” slow but sure progression”…. so here’s your opportunity to show, with facts and figures, what those progression points are.
I note, with interest, that you don’t deny any of the examples I have given regarding Mikel’s list of achievements, but go on the rampage about Wenger and myself.
Let’s say that the article is badly presented, that I should have gone further back to expose even more figures during Wenger’s reign…. I can do that, no problem, but as you say you love all that he has done for the club before, it would be a waste of time wouldn’t it?
Your problem will be that, in the PL, he never finishes below 4th, he,, therefore, always qualifies for the CL.
But as much as you want to make this about AW (as you did in your post regarding degression and progression) that is not the point.
So know, how about you backing up your claim that, we are showing slow but steady signs of improving under Mikel Arteta?
After all, that is what REALLY matters isn’t it??
No more hiding behind the smokescreens of AW and UE – let’s REALLY discuss the present man in charge at The Arsenal and where we are today…. over to you.
By the way, I would have expected this “damn Wenger and ken1945” rhetoric from TMJW of the past, so reading it all again, evokes fond memories of taking his claims apart piece by piece… looking forward to discussing the Arteta side of things with you now.
Hi Ken1945
If you’re not comparing the two managers, then why mention MA at all? Especially with zero context. E.g. ALL players were AW, and in most cases, he had spent years working with them, whereas MA inherited a squad, jam packed with average players, with poor attitudes and mentality. The vastly experienced AW and UE were getting nothing from those players, yet you expect a complete novice like MA to get a tune out of them?
I didn’t even know you were basing the article on something I said. If I said 7/8 years, I imagine it was just an off the cuff remark or I was talking mainly about the CL. Domestically we were poor 2005 onwards.
I have a question for you. Do you think AW was the luckiest manager ever at a top club? To go 9 years straight without a trophy would have got ANY manager sacked at a top club, yet, not only did AW not get the sack, he was rewarded with pay raises, and no pressure to be competitive or even win anything.
I wrote the article in response to you saying how /where /why the regression and progression had/has taken place.
Why you can’t remember it is a mystery, as I asked you to define how you measured regression and progression, but that’s not important.
I’m not sure what context you are looking for.
At the end of the season, the results show where the performances left us in all competitions.
I took every one of Wenger’s stats from our official handbook, so one can’t be more exact than that.
Again I note that you don’t address one single example of MA ‘s record, not even to dispute them, so I have to ask you where the slow but steady signs of progression are.
Finally, back to Wenger, as you have asked me a question regarding him.
Let me first state that in my opinion, Arsene had stayed a season to long and he would not have got us back into the top four.
He had lost his touch, as happens throughout life as age catches up with one, but what he achieved and brought to the club outweighs ANY of his mistakes. He is rightly regarded as a legend throughout the footballing world and it is a pity that his fiercest critics are a section of our fans.
No, I do not think he was the luckiest manager – what other top club in Europe has had a manager who, while maintaining a European place, was having to deal with seeing his right hand man sacked, a new owner and having to sell players each season to help with the repayment of the stadium, along with the new found money being spent y city and chelsea?
Such was his stock within the business community, part of the agreement was that he had to stay with the club for five years when the Emirate contracts
were signed. Tell me, do you think Pep, Klopp, Fergie or any other top manager would have accepted that?
He could have moved on to further his career with the likes of RM PSG etc where there were no ownership or money issues – balancing the Emirates payment issue while having to sell his top players – all the while keeping our club in that elite top four position that we now recognise as one of the hardest things to accomplish.
He did this, despite, not because of, the roubles and oil money flowing into the PL, while kronkie wanted the club to be self sufficient.
Mikel if he remains manager, will have to deal with the spending power of Newcastle and trying to break back into that top four spot will mean competing with Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Newcastle and, as always, the original money bags, United.
Your point about AW ‘s salary is another red herring – every year he qualified for the CL, that initial payment paid his salary – if MA gets the rumoured £8,000,000 a year contract at the end of his current contract and we do not qualify for the CL, will that be an issue for you?
If MA does qualify then, on a regular basis, say seven years, I will believe he has done as much as anyone who supports The Arsenal can expect and will have deserved said salary.
We differ in our expectations quite clearly, but that’s fine – what I would like to understand from you now, however, is where you see these progressions currently under way and to answer the points I raised regarding MA ‘s record to date…..Surely that is the important issue and what prompted me to write the article.
Ken1945 I’ve researched that 5 year contract deal that he was supposed to sign and all I could find was 3 year extension. Also selling players to help fund the stadium debt is a fallacy, as only 30% of incoming fees were allowed to be used, as per the deal with the RBS.
I’ll come back to you HD on the finance deal.
Only being able to use 30% still makes the point that players were being sold and it left the manager with just 70% of what was received to buy another player does it not?
By the way, regarding the player issue, I did say balancing.
Just checking whether it was three or five HD, but again, how the man was regarded by the institution, wouldn’t you say?
Herr Drier, go back to an inter view with the BBC on the 29/4/2016 and you will see that it was a five year guarantee that was demanded and included in the loan agreement for The Emirates….. also reported in the newspapers, including the Daily Telegraph.
David Dein also mentioned it, during his interview when discussing Arsene leaving The Emirates.
Sorry Ken1945, but if it’s Wenger and Dein in that interview then I wouldn’t believe a word they said.
Ken1945, yes he had 70% plus tv revenue, sponsorships, gate receipts, and any monies left over from the CL payments after the £25m stadium debt was taken out.
Of course some of that money would have gone to pay wages.
Well, we might as well stop corresponding if you don’t believe a word that these two men have to say – suddenly I feel rather sorry for you, but each to their own.
You do what you like. If you want to believe a man who admitted on the official clubs website in February 2012 that he had lied about the injury of Vermaelen then that’s up to you. In my book once a liar, always a liar.
Being eliminated in the Knock out stage of the Champions League (which means qualifying and making it through the group stage) means the team was playing in the Champions League, which is better than Europa League qualification or no European football, Yes?
“Not only did Arteta have to rebuild from the ground up in a terribly run club, he has also been working in a more competitive environment.”
This is the kind of unfounded claim the author was speaking out against. From what you are claiming, Arsenal was so bad in Arsene Wenger’s last three years that they finished higher with those poor players, poor coaches, and poor executives than Arteta has with all the excellent players, excellent coaches and excellent executives that the club has subsequently brought in.
Uh… what?
The author makes a fair and honest point; claims of progress when the team is finishing worse than any time in it’s Premier League history are untrue. The team is not progressing. They are changing personnel. True. They have changes executives. True. Arsenal have younger, cheaper players, mostly true. Is there a plan? I would like to think so. As an Arsenal supporter, I hope so.
And yet, despite the highest net spend over three seasons in club history, they are finishing worse. And some of the players turning things around (Saka and ESR), lest we forget, are Arsene Wenger’s players. One of Arteta’s most trusted players is Xhaka, who is is an Arsene Wenger player.
This is not an argument that Arsenal should have kept Arsene Wenger, though based on the performances of his successors, that argument can be fairly made. The author is pointing out that claiming “progress” when the team is finishing lower than before, is a false claim.
The team has regressed in terms of goal difference, points earned, and final rank in the table. Those are the statistics that matter when comparing teams. If, after a full season, a club has fewer points than another club, the club with more points is the better team that season. Period.
If a team fnished 8th in 2020 and 8th in 2021 and 6th in 2022 you cannot claim, with any kind of validity, that the club has “progressed” over a team that fnished 6th in 2018. or 5th in 2019. Or 3rd in 2017.
Claiming the league is tougher now than before, is, even if true, pointless. The Arsenal of 2021/22 is is playing in the Premier League in 2021/22 and the quality of that team is measured against the other teams in the Premier League in 2021/22. Relative to the league Arsenal were the 8th best team the last two years running. Right now, they are 6th, with top 4 possible, and 7th equally likely. Regardless of how this season turns out, Arteta’s performance since becoming manager; 8th, 8th, and 6th, (as of now) is worse compared to Arsene Wenger’s worst years, where the club finished 2nd, 5th, and 6th.
However, unless Arsenal finish 5th or higher, an honest person cannot claim that the team has made progress against the rest of the league; and that is the only genuine measure of progress.
Next season, Arsenal will be measured against the Premier League in 2022/23 as will Chelsea, Man U, Man City, Liverpool, Tottenham, West Ham and every other side; up and down the table.
paul35mm, you have got it in a nutshell my friend – now just take it that step further and ask the question that doesn’t seem to be forthcoming…. where are the RESULTS that show the “slow but steady progression?”
That was the claim made and that’s why I’m questioning it.
It’s just fantasy at this point…. if Mikel does what we all hope he can and brings back that four year elusive top four CL spot, then we will all be happy.
Jonbo, I factor in that KEN is extremely skilled(some might say “cunning” but I COULD NOT POSSIBLY COMMENT ON THAT) at presenting his case in the most favourable light. I have said in print that he could have had a fine career as a defence barrister(Wenger of course).
Ken does indeed conduct diligent research, something that Siamois(above) thinks I should applaud Ken for, though as with you, I prefer unbiased stats to cherry picked ones!
On a far more serious point, I dislike , in general, odious and pointless comparisons between what, in this case may be considered “apples with oranges”.
It is always tempting, if one chooses NOT to see the wider picture, to compare A with B but that does not give a true picture and THAT alone is one prime reason I avoid odious comparisons, as far as possible.
I realise that player and manager comparisons across the ages is a popular subject for any fan site and have no important objection personally, though I rarely if ever wish to get involved, (being the way I am and as I have stated above) simply because it is wrongheaded and pointless, comparing so called apples with so called oranges.
Sorry Jon, but likewise, I don’t give a damn either.
This is a very damning report
The biggest mistake made by arsenal was not getting klopp before he joined Liverpool the arsenal board did not have the bottle to sack Wenger when we was going through a period of not changing for anything had we done so arsenal would still be a force today having seen what klopp has done at Liverpool!
Can anyone say when last has arsenal lost 4 on the trot in the league? Ain’t looking pretty come Wednesday but football is full of surprises.
What about 5 or 6?
Probably the season we got relegated. There were a few times we lost 5 on the spin.
When we got relegated? Sure you are an Arsenal fan ? I dont trust anyone who changed their name. Something fishy about it all.
Not another one who doesn’t know we were relegated in our first season at Highbury? FFS 🙄
Oh yes, you are right, my bad, i have never bothered with pre 1960 Arsenal but i was under the impression we hadn’t. Still, over 100 years ago.
No problem Reggie. I’ve always liked history and even more so when it involves The Arsenal.
I have always maintained its factually not true that we have progressed under Arteta
How two 8th place finishes can be called progress
DS doesn’t matter how many facts you throw to these people, they will continue to call Arteta a genius even if they don’t actually believe it.
@Daniel Smith
As always with the folks on here, zero context!
MA first season he joined mid season, when the club was playing the worst football I have ever seen! The defending at that point wasn’t even Sunday league standard. But somehow MA is to blame for the complete that he inherited. Please someone explain how that works?
And we keep hearing there’s been no progress at all. So our defending has not improved? The type of players has not improved?
So by your own admission, you’d rather Bellerin over Tomiyasu, Ozil over Odegaard, Mustafi and Sokratis over White and Gabriel, Leno over Ramsdale, Elneny over Partey, etc, etc…
Jonbo, contex is normally missed by people who have only been fans since Wenger was the manager.
You missed the context Herr Drier, go back and look at goals conceded and tell me why, after replacing four of the five defenders at a cost of over £100,000,000 we are still conceding enough goals that could equal Wenger’s last year, where its been claimed, we had no defence??
If the players are better, then why are they not producing the goods?
That’s the context of the article, comparing exactly where MA has improved the results.
it’s factual that in terms of our League position we have regressed
If you said day he arrived we finish 8th….8th and then fail to qualify for CL the next season you would have been happy about that ?
I would have had Ozil over Odegarrd yes
I would have Aubameyang over Eddie Nketiah
I would have Pepe playing more then he is
I would have Guendozi in our midfield
I would have Saliba playing
So you would have a player who slowly walked off the pitch in a European Final and bad mouthed the Head Coach ? You would have a player that constantly breaks the clubs rules ? You would have a player that 2 managers dropped because of his attitude ? And to cap it all you would play a player that has been playing in a weaker league and has been given bad reviews for his performances in the EL ? Gotcha 🙄
Yes , the point you miss is it’s all well and good offloading players who I agree were not great but not if you replace them with worse quality
So your stance that Auba had to go because off his attitude
That’s noble ….but if you replace him with Eddie ? Then what the point
I support Ozil and guendozi not being here if you bring in better
You can’t keep failing in the Prem and say how great our players are
Example would be we are struggling to score or make chances
In the summer you will say well done Arteta for offloading Pepe
My stance is if you don’t replace him with anyone better how’s that good ?
The point you seem to be missing is that it’s very rare that clubs release a top striker when they are in a/chasing a European spot. I take it you would rather have kept a player who was resorting to type to force a move and who was kicked out of his national squad for breaking their rules.
Partey and Ødegaard, while not setting the the world alight, are performing better than for us than Ozil and Guendouzi.
@Dan
When I hear an Arsenal fan say they want Ozil back (the guy recently suspended by Fenerbache for undermining his manager, third time in a row he’s done that), there’s just no coming back from that one. That has completely destroyed your credibility.
when I hear an Arsenal fan calling 8th progress theres no coming back from that one . That destroys their credability
You select the players that befit your statement only.
Now ramsdale was in for runnerson which was signed by Arteta as well.
Sokratis over Mari a million time.
Saliba is above white.
Niles over Soares at the right back.
Ozil over Willian a million times. And so does Esr which barely have game time because of Willian being brought.
Tierney over travares.
Guenzo and toreira over lokonga.
So how about you look it this way too..
Cause the players I mentioned where all brought in by arteta and compare them to the players they replaced.
Dan,
Take AC Milan. Pioli took a 5th placed team that hadn’t finished top4 for at least 5-6 years and turned them into title contenders.
Is that progress under Pioli?
If you don’t like Pioli you could say “Sacchi and Capello’s AC Milan were winning the title year in year out and walking over Europe, how can finishing second and being kicked out of the champions league in the group stage under Pioli can be progress?”
Is that fair to compare Pioli’s AC Milan to the great teams they had in the late 80s and 90s?
Did Arteta pick up a top4 Arsenal from Wenger or a mid table team from Ljungberg after Emery had been sacked half way through the season?
Dan,
There was always going to be a few difficult seasons after Wenger’s been (outrageously) kicked out.
Wenger’s shoes are quite big ones to fill aren’t they?
A fan yesterday said this season is a free hit hence why no targets! If this is true the standard of Arsenal football club is on the floor. David Moyes took relegation threatened WH to 6th last season and now have a very good chance of reaching Europa league final this season while only 2 points behind Arsenal who have had the luxury of playing one game a week for months, and also spending no where near the money Arteta has spent. Are we led to believe that WH is a bigger club than Arsenal now? Enough of this nonsense of the youngest squad in the PL league, who’s decision was it to go down this route? Who decided to chase after an assistant manager with no managerial experience? What’s the plan develop younger players and sell them on for profit? As long as Arsenal fans are divided the club will never challenge again! I would say majority of fans have now accepted mediocrity and have completely bought into a process that is going nowhere, I think they would rather continue with Arteta hoping it eventually comes good so they can say I told you so. this isn’t about who’s right or wrong this is about the club and it’s light years away from challenging and getting further away every season.
Kev82, your last sentence is the clincher for me.
We are slipping further and further behind and the fact that MA is asking for another SEVEN players says it all.
This is rebuilding on a rebuild of a rebuild.
How many more rebuilds before the whole structure imploads on itself?
Ken1945 the rebuild will be finished when Arteta has a 25 man squad of his choice.
So he’s a cheque book manager and can’t actually coach players to adhere to his tactics? Very few managers on earth get a full 25 man squad of exactly who they want.
Right, got it! Think he’s at the wrong club.
Name me a manager in top flight football who isn’t a ‘cheque book manager’ ? The way things are going it would seem that MA will be one of those few managers that get his 25 man squad.
You haven’t got it, as you never had it in the first place.
Not very few manager.
There’s no manager on earth in world football that had been provided with 25man squad that Herr is requesting for.
If there’s anything, it shows how poor arteta is if he needs 25man squad sign by him to challenge for top4 and other areas.
Klopp and pep have at least 5 players in their squad that wasn’t signed by them and all have contributed to their recent victories.
In fact, Liverpool just started to get the squad dept they needed just 2years ago.
They had no replace for Salah or mane or anyone to challenge them through the years except for last season when they signed jota، and this season when they signed Diaz.
So that give him his 25man squad is totally impossible.
He has to learn to work with what he got.
But you can’t really blame him, man has no idea how it’s done.
He’s fortunate to manage a team like Arsenal as his first job, no limit budget to some extent.
So why won’t they think he need his 25men squad.
Kaay, there’s 2 managers that worked in the PL that got the 25 man squads that they wanted, Fergie and Wenger. In his early days at Utd, Fergie faced the same kind of job that Arteta is facing, rebuilding the club. 4 years after taking charge at Utd results were poor and one game saved his career there, the 1-0 win in the FA Cup game at Forest in 1990. The rest as they say is history. I’m not saying Arteta is going to be another Fergie, but it goes to show what patience and backing can achieve.
As for Klopp not having players to replace Mane and Salah until last season, the facts say different. Firmino, Origi have been there during that time plus Sturridge, Ings, Solanke and Minamino have at one time or another been available to Klopp.
If you’re going to come at me at least get your facts right !
Herr Drier, so how many times do we watch Mikel sign a player, then said player leaves six months later…. or give another player a £300,000 plus reported contract, then give him away six months later (Willian and Aubameyang)?
At that rate, Mikel would be pulling the wool over your eyes for a good many years, as you wait patiently for his very own 25 man squad.
Willian was not an Arteta signing, he was a Kia joorabchian/edu dodgy deal.
No, he was an Arteta signing… Read what Willian says about how MA persuaded him to sign.
That’s how they keep giving excuses up and down.
When a player is bad it’s edu, if it’s good it’s signed by Arteta.
Haven’t Arteta came out to say he has says in all the signing that were being made.
Arteta signed Willian, that was the year their project started that they promised UCl trophy in 3 years.
2 years gone. 1 more year to go, perhaps they still have a year to prove us wrong with the Ucl trophy they promised.
Ken1945, Arteta wasn’t the manager when Willian was signed or when Auba signed that contract. He was at that time the Head Coach, and like his predecessor Emery, didn’t have much say in any deals. Also neither player left after 6 months of signing for the club or after signing then new contract.
I gather you don’t know the difference between a Head Coach and a manager.
Fergie quit like 7years ago, Wenger like quit 4 to 5 years ago.
Now both managers had manage for more than 40years.
Are you saying they will have the same squad for 40years??
How does that make any sense??
Now I am talking of modern day, name me a manager that all the players in the team where his signing.
Prove me wrong. By naming one manager in modern era..
You mentioned arteta need his 25men squad to succeed and I said that’s impossible to have. Not in this modern era.
You realize even at present we have players who are not signed by him and still remain in the line up.
How can you say before you can judge a coach you need to see him have his own 24men squad first.
That’s going to take up to 10 years to achieve.
Klopp has been with Liverpool for 7years and he still got players signed by previous management in his current squad.
Now did origi and firmino were signed by klopp??
I think you are the one with no fact here.
This just prove my point.
More so does origi and firmino play in Salah and mane position to begin with?
And where is the minamino guy now?? Diaz has already has more EPL appearance in this season with Liverpool more than him.
Jota and Diaz are the one they signed to replace both hence you see both of them in the team regularly compare to the names you mentioned.
I meant to include” in modern days” in my initial comment.
So name me a manager that has 24squad men that all signed by him playing for him any league..
Do you even realize how impossible what you are requesting is??
Not even team with billions of spending will give any manager that.
City, chealse, Madrid, psg, those are the big spenders.
Mention the year they provided any manager with 24 squad man in 3 years or one year.
I will be waiting for your answer
Kaay, your quite right, especially as it means getting rid of Saka, ESR and Martinelli to name just three!!!
A managers 25 man squad is made up of the players the manager wants. That includes players that were there before he took over. The ones he doesn’t want are got rid of.
This is the team Klopp selected for his 1st game for Liverpool against the vermin.
Mignolet
Clyde
Skrtel
Sakho
Moreno
Leiva
Can
Milner
Lallana
Coutinho
Origi
Subs
Kolo
Allen
Ibe
Bogdan
Sinclair
Teixeira
Randall
How many of those players are still there ? The answer is TWO. He’s been there 6.5 years.
Exactly Ken! Yet people think we aren’t that far away it’s absolute madness! We’re told to be patient this process takes time, well haven’t we been patiently waiting 16 years now ? Left Highbury to challenge the big boys in Europe and hilariously we aren’t even in Europe, we constantly get fed lies and worryingly these people who support this so called process actually believe it. I don’t believe anything that comes from that club anymore Ken.
I live in a house for 15 years and I let it get outdated and in need of major renovation.
You come along and try to repair it, and then get slated for all the damage I have done.
That is Arsenal today under Arteta.
But unless Bob you are the builder, you are Bob the DIYer and not experienced enough to do a good job.
😂😂😂 not laughing at you ob, just the Bob the Builder response 😂😂😂
🙂
The data presented in this article is damning though I may not be aware of the writer motive it is at this time irrelevant.
The information presented does not argue’s well for the gaffer, honestly, though am aware of things may not been too rosy at present,but some of the data presented was like a bomb shell, I have no reason to question the authenticity of the information, but hopefully though this can add some urgency to the matter at hand.
Though this information may not waiver my support for the gaffer, it does highlight the mammoth task ahead, it also reveals whether one is a red gooner or a white gooner all the support will be needed to finish the remaining seven games.
Am a massive fan of Wenger, in fact I wish he was still somewhere up stairs, his very strong virtues of being humble and smart had made it difficult for his removal half way during his tenure when he had completely lost his mojo,
With over two thirds of the gaffer probation complete, failure to make the top six is unacceptable
The first two seasons of Arteta was no progress…from a rookie manager I don’t expect progress….he’s learning on the job….he’s man management is very poor…tactics poor at times…..not a good motivator….I’ve always felt that Arteta is a checkbook manager but if you have to compare then compare the team Arteta inherited from Emery with the results Emery produced with the same players….5th compared to 8th and we were never in 8th place from Wenger’s time….so no progress
Statistics can ‘prove’ anything particularly when using restricted data. For example it is also a statistical fact that neither Wenger or Arteta has been relegated with arsenal, neither has won the league cup and neither has won the champions League so on that basis are they as good as each other??
Progression/regression is determined from whichever starting point you select. Wenger regression came from the high bar he’d set himself in his earlier years. Arteta progression comes from the low bar set in the Emery days. Are we still worse than the Wenger years, yes we probably are, but that’s not the full picture and doesn’t acknowledge the decline in-between the two tenures ( not just in terms of league finishes etc but in terms of the non quantitative factors such as playing style and perceived effort from players).
This is not to say that we can’t compare different managers out of interest, just that we must do so with caution.
On reflection, I think the big difference is just how much slack people are willing to cut arteta for being a new manager.
Some lowered there expectations, to varying degrees, to account for the inexperience, while others are looking at it from the perspective of “we want to move forwards” and “is MA the best we can do?”.
I’ve definitely been willing to give MA some slack, and still am, but I’m not blind to the mistakes. I also think he’s made some positive changes, but we’ve seen the squad go from bloated to threadbare, and that will cost us this season. It shows he hasn’t carefully overseen a regeneration of the squad – we’ve shown more vigour in getting rid of players than in getting replacements, I feel.
I don’t think the article is particularly unfair – it’s never going to be perfect, I don’t think points totals and goal differences mean the same year on year, but it’s about as good as anyone can do.
… And it’s not comparing vastly different eras of football
Thanks for digging up the facts Ken, it’s a great article.
I’ve always supported Wenger and today I do support Arteta.
In the current debate the central question is what do you compare todays Arteta’s team to in order to assess if there is progress or not?
This is where I disagree with you.
In my views we can only assess Arteta’s performance by comparing how the team is today to how it was when he took on the job.
Take AC Milan. Pioli took a 5th placed team that hadn’t finished top4 for at least 5-6 years and turned them into title contenders.
Is that progress under Pioli?
If you don’t like Pioli you could say “Sacchi and Capello’s AC Milan were winning the title year in year out and walking over Europe, how can finishing second and being kicked out of the champions league in the group stage under Pioli can be progress?”
Is that fair to compare Pioli’s AC Milan to the great teams they had in the late 80s and 90s?
Did Arteta pick up a top4 team from Wenger or a mid table one from Ljungberg after Emery had been sacked half way through the season?
Is Arsenal in a better situation now than it was in December 2019?
You can argue the progress under Arteta isn’t fast enough or that someone else could do a better job, these are valid points.
Using Wenger as a benchmark to assess the team’s progress under Arteta however makes no sense in my opinion.
You’re not comparing apple with apple.
Actually KeGunber, I didn’t originally compare them, it was a statement saying that regression under AW, has turned into progression under MA.
As I couldn’t see this, I produced figures to compare the results to date and gave actual examples where MA has, unfortunately, recorded some dire results.
Then I asked if any data could be produced to back up those green shoots of progression – to date, none have been produced.
Thanks for your comments regarding the article and let’s hope we beat chelsea tomorrow night!!! COYG.
Sorry LeGunner, it’s my stubby finger!!!
I understand Ken.
Thank you again for putting together such a good factual article.
Fingers crossed for the second half.
COYG
There are significant differences between the premier league now and just a few years ago. The leading teams like Liverpool and Man City have reached a very impressive level over the last few seasons. Chelsea are also very strong. In the history of the PL I doubt that there has ever been such strength at the top.
Below the top 3 there are a number of strong and talented teams. Man U, despite strengthening, (nb they were 2nd last season) are struggling to get in the top 4 and unlikely to make it.
Arteta is being cut some slack, in part, as you say because he is rebuilding the squad with relatively young, inexperienced, albeit talented players. He also has a limited number of dependable senior players.
Comparing Wenger’s years over any period with Arteta’s to date is problematic because in order to make any comparison “fair” it will be necessary to equate the circumstances which is difficult.