A plausible path to fan ownership by Bryam Gobbett
If JustArsenal.com is an accurate reflection of the sentiment of Arsenal supporters across the globe, and I believe it is, then I think it’s fair to say that Gunner fans want a change in ownership. The overwhelming belief is that we have an owner who is singularly concerned with making money and unconcerned about the long-term health and success of Arsenal FC beyond what that success might yield in terms of his return on investment. English football clubs have a long history of wealthy owners; some beloved, some despised. But are wealthy individual owners (even if they are fronted by some corporate entity like Kroenke Sports Entertainment) the most desirable form of football-club ownership/administration or is there a better way? The obvious alternative is the ‘registered association’ model employed at clubs like FC Barcelona and Real Madrid. In this model, the club is owned by the fans who elect a President to run the club. It’s probably not a stretch to say that one ownership model is a dictatorship and the other is a democracy. Is it possible to overthrow a dictator and create a democracy in the realm of football-club ownership?
Before we examine the feasability of such a transition, let’s take a brief look at the history of Arsenal FC ownership and where things currently stand. I’ve scraped the following off the internet and I believe it to be reasonably accurate, but would welcome inputs/corrections in the comments section below.
Royal Arsenal Football Club actually started out as a ‘Mutually Owned’ club before becoming a Limited Liability Company (LLC) in 1893. Those early years were fickle and uncertain. In 1910 a liquidation and overhaul resulted in the owner of Fulham FC, Henry Norris, taking over. Under his stewardship Arsenal moved to Highbury in 1913. By 1929 however a financial scandal forced Norris out and ownership in the club transitioned to Sir Bracewell-Smth (then an MP, and later a Mayor of London) and Samuel Hill-Wood. These two families maintained majority ownership of Arsenal FC until recent times, though significant blocks of shares were sold on to David Dein and Danny Fisman towards the end of the 20th century, and 9.9% of the club was sold on to Granada Holdings (part of ITV) in the early part of this century.
Stan Kroenke first got involved with Arsenal in 2007 when he purchased that 9.9% stake from Granada Holdings. It was the beginning of an aggressive campaign to acquire a majority and controlling interest in the club. By the end of 2009 he had increased his stake to 29.9%, the maximum an individual entity is allowed to own without triggering a full takeover. During this time Alisher Usmanov was acquiring significant blocks of shares in Arsenal FC, and by September 2011 he too owned just over 29% of the club. Kroenke however continued to acquire shares, extending his onership beyond 29.9% and triggering the obligation to acquire all shares in the club, including those owned by Usmanov and those owned by the Arsenal Supporters Trust. By August of 2018 Kroenke had acquired all shares and had 100% ownership of our club. His initial purchase of 9.9% of the shares in 2007 valued the club at £700M. His recent and final share purchases values the club at over £1.8 Billion. Just to put this into context, that number is still far short of other soccer clubs such as Manchester United, Barcelona and Real Madrid which are all valued at close to £4.0B.
So, Kroenke, over an eleven year period, purchased all shares of Arsenal FC. Without specific details and timelines and numbers of shares purchased, it’s hard to determine his average share purchase price, but it’s probably not an unreasonable estimation to say that he shelled out over £1.3B for the asset (Arsenal FC) that is now worth around £1.8 Bn. Now that we’ve determined an approximate valuation, let’s look at what a fan take-over might look like . . .
What would it cost to buy out Kroenke?
I’m going to speculate and say that if the valuation of football clubs such as Real Madrid, Barcelona and Man Utd are in the £4.0B range, and Kroenke has paid a price that values Arsenal at £1.8B, he’s probably not going to take anything less than £2.5B for the club. That’s a serious wad of cash!
How many Arsenal fans would need to buy in?
Enough to fill a football stadium seems to be a good estimate. Real Madrid appear to have around 60,000 fan-owners and Barcelona seem to have around 140,000. Let’s take the average of these two which just happens to be the nice even number of 100,000. At a valuation of £2.5B, each of the 100,000 fans would need to pony-up £25,000 each.
How do you find 100,000 Arsenal fans with £25,000 burning a hole in their pocket?
This is the really tricky part. Although undoubtedly there are a lot of very wealthy fans of Arsenal FC, I’m going to guess the majority don’t have £25,000 burning a hole in their pocket. But rather than asking 100,000 individuals to figure out how to come up with £25,000 each, what if there was a bank out there willing to finance the deal? Each interested Arsenal fan just signs up at the bank for a £25,000 loan. At an interest rate of 6% this would be a repayment of £277 per month over a 10 year period. I believe there could be 100,000 Arsenal supporters out there who’d be willing to pay £277 per month over 10 years to be an owner of Arsenal FC. What a fantastic legacy that would be, the ability to pass on ownership in Arsenal FC to your kids, on top of all the privileges that could be enjoyed by being a fan-owner.
Will Kroenke sell for a reasonable price?
It’s impossible to know. But if he played hardball the fans could reciprocate in kind by boycotting games. Three or four months of an empty Emirates stadium would probably force a sale at a price far less than the pre-hardball starting point.
Has anything like this ever been done?
To the best of my knoweldge, both Barcelona and Real Madrid started out as ‘registered associations.’ I don’t believe either of them were converted to that model. A number of clubs in England have converted to fan-ownership through a ‘Supporter Buyout’ but nothing even close to the size and scale of Arsenal FC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fan-owned_sports_teams#Supporter_Buyout
Probably the two biggest English clubs this has ever been pulled off at are Exeter City and Wycombe Wanderers.
So, yes, if Arsenal fans were to attempt this it’d be many orders of magnitude larger than any previous Supporter Buyout. Is it likely? Probably not. It is feasible? Definitely . . . it’d just need the right person or set of people to get the ball rolling. People told Elon Musk he’d never send a rocket into space. Not only did he prove them wrong, he also created a car company and stuck one of his cars on the front of one of his rockets and sent that into space too. Anything is possible with the right person spearheading it. The big question really is, do we have an Elon Musk-like character in the Arsenal fan family, and/or do Arsenal fans want this enough?
I would do that GBP277 / 10 yrs less any ‘deposit’ I put down. Put me first on the list and promote this….
I will gladly be part of the Arsenal ownership…count me in and let this circulate
Good idea, now all the non season ticket holders can contribute instead of us boycotting games. I won’t be holding my breath mind you.
City 1 up, desperate to keep our Invincible tag. Although there were people on these pages who said Arsenal were going to end Liverpool’s unbeaten run, people who probably never saw the Invincibles, anyway that was never going to happen, stupid statement really, living in dreamland. Come on City.
Hope everybody saw how Guadiola just abused Atkinson, the fourth official. no action, compare that to Unai kicking a plastic bottle. Laughable
WERE INVINCIBLE, YOU’LL NEVER DO THAT
Hell yes Kenny!!! ??????
-Happy New year Sue to you and the family
Thanks Kenny….. and the same to you too!
First we need to find Arsenal fans, ones that have a good head for business. We could do with some fans who also practice law. We’ll need some who know a bit about the inner workings of football. We need some fans, who’ve also gained allot of managerial experience. No point us buying the club and not knowing what to do or where to start, we’ll need to make plans. This F-team could get the ball rolling by signing up 100 thousand fans, and be a little bit picky. We don’t want a non fan slipping through the crack and trying to muck things up from the inside, or try to take a huge loan out against the club.
Message to Liverpool
You’ll never walk invincible……
HAHAHA
What a precarious situation! We need a proactive fan base. I doubt if Kroenke will be ready to transform arsenal to a title winning side at any cost. Time will tell.
100,000 fans with 25k pounds ???
Not gonna be easy. As for the Elon Musk character, I think Jon fox will do, unless he only talks the talk on justarsenal.com. Over to you Jon.
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Seems pretty impossible at this point to get rid of the American. If we want him out am afraid we will have to jump into bed with another billionaire who can stump up the colossal sums of money being spoken of. Even if there were would Kroenke sell? The African billionaire, Dangote, already expressed his doubts about convincing Kroenke to sell and talked about having to consider other clubs. I wish there were a rule from the beginning limiting how much of a football club individuals can own like in the bundesliga. Now we are doomed, stuck at the mercy of a single man’s wimps. If he’s in a good mood and decides we buy then we buy. If he says we bugger off he is not putting a single coin into the club there’s not much to do.
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we can still boycott games, and I believe the FA will step in to have a say.
Love the idea of boycotting attendance and leaving an empty stadium for months on end!
But why stop there?
Boycott the Arsenal store and ban shirt sales as well. This would create havoc with the owner’s valuation of the club and bring the takeover price well down!
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We are stuck with him!
Hi,
Good article,
But if you seriously believe musk put a car into space you need to get back to reality and see why he did not.There is plenty of scientific evidence as to why that was not possible. But be it far from me to tell you the reasons why. But fior a start, he said. It must be real because it looks so fake. We have better cgi than that. So What I read into that is : cgi is better and more realistic than the real thing? If an unadaulterated car could ever get into space the tyres would expand in a vacuum until they exploded.
Exactly you could CGI Jose Mourinho on the moon without a spacesuit doesn’t mean it actually happened although Jose would say otherwise ?
The tires would burn up going through the outer atmosphere, unless they made special tires that don’t melt or burn. It’d be too dangerous to the ship if you were to use an average car. Not just the tires, there’s too much flammable material or your average car, even the glass would melt or shatter.
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I’d be interested in reading those papers, if there is scientific evidence to disprove it, as far as I am aware, it is possible and it was done…
But I am happy to accept it didn’t if I can see the evidence/papers from credible people.
Otherwise Aliens did it.
I love this idea. I had a similar idea in mind when that dirty yank got full ownership.
Let’s not forget there are Arsenal fans who could pay more than £25 000. I could you buy one for sure.
How many shares would each get for £25 000? If the club makes profit, would it be shared among the 100 000 owners?
Intriguing idea and I would be part of this if this was ever to materialize. I’m afraid though we are stuck with that dirty leech.
But that’s the issue on the head.
If the Club made a profit ZERO money would come out to the new shareholders as it would ALL be reinvested into the Team.Can you seriously imagine 100,000 investors all climbing over each other for their profit share?And 100,000 moaning when the Club didn’t make a profit?And yet the first thing you think of is “Where’s My ShareOf The Profit”?
Don’t you get it?There is ZERO PROFIT SHARE.It STAYS IN THE CLUB.
Great article-very well researched and written
But Kroenke does annually make withdrawals from the club, doesn’t he? It’s all a business for him, so he needs to get something out of it. How does he do it?
Amount of Arsenal fans moaning is a constant. So they are going to moan no matter what. I guess the profit can be made when selling your shares though.
Exactly-so being a shareholder is a duty of lovebut at a cost.Would 100,000 supporters be prepared to do this?I doubt it when it comes the time to pay up.
True true.. I would be willing to do it with the help of a bank.
Although which kind of bank would give a group of 100k a loan of £2,5 billion? Crazy amount of money.
They wont look at it that way, if they did then no one would ever get a loan. We’d be individuals and what we do with our money would be our own business. So long as you can afford the monthly fee, that’s all they care about.
People have families, children to support, bills to pay surely that’s more important than the burden of debt to remove a reclusive billionaire! We all love the club but they aren’t priority number one not for me anyway! We would all love to see the back of Stan Kroenke but unless another Billionaire comes in with a offer that he can’t refuse we’re stuck with him unfortunately! Arsenal football club have given very little back to the loyal fans! Lack of investment in the squad yet still charge top dollar for match day tickets and season tickets! But more and more fans are now becoming disillusioned by it all! This self sustainable model has failed we’re further behind than we ever were! I’ll always continue to support the team but will not be buying any merchandise until serious investment is made for proper player recruitment!
Relax John, Dangote is the answer. After the completion of his refinery, in his words, “that’ll take us from a 13m usd company to a 30m usd company, then we will table an offer that Kroenke can’t refuse”
TH14 I would celebrate that day like we just won the Champions League! here’s hoping ?
I agree with what you say John!
Th14 – I’ll be amazed if Kroenke sells up!!
Thanks Sue at least we live in the real world ?
Dangote, the richest man in Africa, he’s got no intention of buying the club, pure publicity stunt, anyway Kroenke wouldn’t sell, why should he, he wouldn’t sell to Usmanov. No, I’m sorry, you’ll have to take out large bank loans and buy the club yourself. LOL
Where do I sign?
Just send Kronke a cheque for £2.5b and I’m sure the other 99,999 will pay you back as soon as they can?
What a dream. Any fan worth the name would buy into this without batting an eye. Pity is, it is what it is.
Dreams come true, and everybody can afford them. If they dare.
Can we?
Yes we can!
Hmmm. This is quite a big dreamt idea challenge that’s challenging but could come to pass if spearheaded and vigorously pursued and triggered into action by the Arsenal Supporters Trust – AST the main umbrella of Arsenal supporters. I should think rather than an individual person to spearheaded the revolt against Stan Kroenke, the AST could be the Elon Musk character being talked about to see the looking to be impossible mission to a possible one by forcing Kroenke’s hand to relinquish his holdings at Arsenal to 100,000 Gooners for an agreed price. But this revolt to overthrow Kroenke from Arsenal should only happen if the Arsenal self financial sustaining model doesn’t make Arsenal to win the PL title next season and Ucl the season that followed.
A self financial sustaining model in running a business enterprise is not only good but is the best if there to be viability in the running of the business. But since the playing ground is not level in the PL as some big club sides that are in it are being owned by multimillionares who have shown great passion for the clubs they owned by losing the purse string at regular intervals for their clubs to be strongly strengthened so as to make them compete strongly to win. However, the same thing cannot be said of Kroenke who doesn’t loose the strings of his purse to strongly strengthened Arsenal with more top quality players that will enabled them to wi the PL title once again.
If all the clubs in the PL will return to the level playing ground to become self financial sustaining business like Arsenal is now but not being owned by the multimillionares who will pump unlimited money into their clubs to make them win the PL title but disadvantaged Arsenal from winning the PL title again.
The fact is that regulations are key as said, Arsenal is aself sustaining club and that is why the new backroom staff were brought in.they subscribe to this model. The owner is not going to inject his cash to the club.if you want asteam of endless financing,join the oil rich club’s.period.
Sharp thinking, Samuel. I left a post saying, we need to find some specialized fans, never even occurred to me that the AST fit the profile.
They say every man has is price. How high is SK’s price. I don’t know – we don’t know. Is like asking Donald Trump ‘What do you mean by ‘truth’? No pint in asking him. He doesn’t know.
I like the idea of not going to matches at the EMs. That might just press the button, if the reason was in protest of SK’s ownership.
We can always show our support by attending away games and using social media to make our purpose known.
The only snag is the club SK doesn’t need the fans ticket money. It can survive with TV money and other payments.
One question snowden, have you got a season ticket?
If I lived in the UK I would have one.
Snowden.
Arsenal are one of the largest clubs around, thanks to its foreign fans, every bit as much as your regular match going fan. Not everyone is privileged in the same way. Kenny, you have no ability to look outside of your own head, you are the type of person who could easily make the same comment, to some guy, who’s unfortunate enough to be stuck in a hospital bed. I’ve never met someone that talks about his season ticket, the way you have, like it’s an achievement. I’m not aiming to be disrespectful, just saying how it looks from the outside.
Also, should we not say ..we played well tonight, when we do well.
What are you talking about? I’m fed up with people like you keep telling season ticket holders to boycott games when you don’t have a season ticket. What we supposed to do, pay for them and not go, You’re mad if you think that. Also to talk about someone in hospital is a stupid argument and anyway mind you’re own business.
Like I said Kenny, wasn’t trying to upset you. This stuff has been brought up for maybe five seasons now, it’s nothing new. It’s your ticket no-one can make the decision for you, as you well know. I just like it when fans use the word “We” It’s a good thing, a very good thing, but you kinda tried to separate some from that.
Wenger was brought down only after the attendance dropped, so it’s a reasonable thing to ask of the people who do want to see a change. If you are not one of those people, then nothing is asked of you. Also, we are not there yet, in my opinion, but the day does look like it might have to come. All of us could play a part, but that is extremely unlikely, so the biggest difference will be the attendance figures. Anyways, have a good one Kenny, and could you please urge that crowd to be a little bit louder, and with a little more consistency, it’d be much appreciated.
If anyone seems to keep talking about my season ticket, it’s you. I don’t know whether you know but the season ticket is paid for in May, the days we paid at the turnstiles are long gone but you wouldn’t know that because you never go. Do you think if we don’t go, we don’t pay. How stupid is that? They’ve already got our money. Also I was calling for Wenger to stand down from 2007, probably before you supported the club, sometimes standing up shouting on my own. I’m an original North Bank boy from the 60’s, a passionate fan who even at my age tries regularly to get the atmosphere going but unfortunately the Board at Arsenal killed the noise by pricing out the working class kids, instead preferring Tourists and, as Roy Keane once called them “the prawn sandwich brigade” and their money. Your out of order , sitting in your living room, telling people who’s paid up to £80 a game not to go. What are you doing in the mean time? Putting together the most stupid idea I’ve ever seen on these pages of raising 2.5 Billion pounds to buy the club. Supporters buying Wycombe Wanderers for a few thousand pounds is one, buying Arsenal Football Club is another. Stupid and laughable and why Admin has left this stupid article on the website is for people like you.
Like I said, I wasn’t trying to upset you. I see that I have, so apologies on my part. All I can do is talk about – The stuff being brought up. If you believe that I’m stupid, then don’t let anything I say bother you in the slightest, I wouldn’t, if the roles were reversed. As a regular on this site, all the same, I am free to reply to peoples remarks, and give my honest opinion. You say the article is stupid, and then try to credit me for it. Barcelona, Real, there are examples of this working, so, not sure how stupid it is, but that’s your opinion and you have every right to it. I took the article to be – Wouldn’t this be great, a fantasy, but there is no buying Stan out (in case you wondered). By the way, deducing someone to be talking stupidly, over something they never said – Though you are right, that would be stupid. I do have respect for my elders, I was brought up like that – Though only in person, and only to the ones I know and meet. All the best Kenny, sincerely.
B.O.T Not once did I call you stupid, I said it’s stupid to think we don’t pay if we don’t go. I also called the article stupid because it’s never going to happen in a million years. Also the majority of Real Madrid and Barcelona’s money comes from sponsorship and television money of which the two clubs get an incredibly large share from the Spanish media and in Real Madrid’s case the Spanish Government. B.O.T you started the abuse by telling me “I don’t have the ability to look outside my own head” whatever that’s supposed to mean and then went on to make some comment about an unfortunate person in a hospital. Sorry but that was completely out of order, you don’t even know me, I happen to be a caring person and what you said was totally opposite of my character. Anyway after that you at least had the decency to apologize of which I fully accept so lets leave it at that . Happy New Year B.O.T to you and your family.
A wonderful and well researched article that is, essentially, the historical truth. There is no reason why IN THEORY this idea could not work. BUT there are serious practical obstacles as to why it never will, the main ones being as follows: With the best will in the world it is fantasy to suggest that so many thousands of our fans would be both willing(which a number would be) and ABLE to stump up that huge sum. Bear in mind that there would be no actual proper interest return on this money to those fans. Not unless those same devoted fans were (and en masse) prepared to put their own financial gain above the club they adore by taking dividends. Thus harming our club.THAT COULD NEVER BE AGREED WITH SO LARGE AN OWNERSHIP. A sobering thought to any who fantasise about this ever happening. Secondly, Kroenke will not sell for 2 .5 billion or anywhere near it, UNLESS A SERIOUS EVENT OR SERIES OF EVENTS HAPPENS TO DRASTICALLY FIRST REDUCE THE CLUB’S CONSTANT INCREASE IN VALUE. Relegation would be ONE example or serious fan uninterest in the club. OR BOTH!!! THIS is the level of virtually “impossible” things that would need to occur , before Kroenke would be forced to sell And it would need to be forced; of that I have no doubt at all. You may then say, well, everyone and everything has it’s price. That is not strictly true ALL the time either, even though it mostly is true. There are also other financially technical obstacles, too complicated to expain in simple terms to most fans. We can disregard those as they will not arise. To sum up, a thought provoking and deeply interesting article which no doubt will attract much rightful fan interest. But sadly, it is a non starter. How much I pray it were otherwise, only devoted Gooners like you ALL on here can even begin to guess. All this however does not mean we can never rid our club of the KROENKE creature. IT SIMPLY MEANS THAT WE NEED TO FIND AN ETHICAL CORPORATE ORGANISATION OR MULTI BILLIONAIRE BENEFACTOR WHO HAPPENS TO BE A DYED IN THE WOOL GOONER. Far easier said than done!
There is no way in the world a bank will finance 2.5 billion in unsecured loans even if they are made to 100,000 Arsenal fans. This is a naive (but creative) proposal.
No but every Arsenal fan could arrange their own personal loan to pay for their share….
No need to borrow 2.5 BN
Ok that’s different than described above. Can you imagine the logistic issues with that? Best way would be to set up an SPV where fans can buy a share for 25000. Once the SPV holds 2.5 billion you could make an offer from the SPV.
But as a seller, you would not consider an offer without proof of financial means so all of this would need to be set up prior to knowing if a deal can be done. This really is a (nice) pipe dream.
You are surely not serious Pat. If you are then you have much to learn about how the financial world works.
Jon, I’m surprised you even bothered to comment on this stupid article
Great article, could work. I had thoughts of a similar scheme. The problem I see is that SK has gone after this project pretty aggressively and clearly with a long term aim. Would he be easily prised out, particularly in view of the involvement of his son? I suspect not. Americans are serious about this type of legacy in the family.
This discussion of ownership is a good topic but I don’t think the article has enough depth to it to be considered a real concept.
I seen arsenal owned by fans who happen to be businessmen and they employed a manager who shared their values until he took some back handers and compromised the owners in interest, I seen that go to a manager who share and understood the owners values and collectively achieve great things before the ownership changed again because the previous owners could not maintain the levels arsenal required.
The current owners may not either maintain the levels achieved before. The new stadium, the investment was a huge step towards putting us on the map yet we are a smaller club in numbers then Man United, Bayern, Real Madrid..
We must maintain growth. I am not the biggest fan of Stan. But Raul and Sven and Unai are ALL good recruits.
Under Wenger Stan was able to leech off of Wengers magic until he ran out of spells.
We are in a new dawn. Can we not just allow the club some time to let this work?
I feel we are all too focused on the fact city psg chelsea and co spend big and we don’t.
But equally other teams don’t and have done well.
“We are in a new dawn ,can we not just allow the club some time for this to work “
I’m sorry Tom but Im still waiting for the last new dawn to start ,you know the one where Ivan the snake promised would happen after the stadium was built .
Think most fans realise that nothing positive will happen until Stan sells up ,and I don’t see that happening for quite awhile yet
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Best and most important article that has ever appeared on this site. It would be a big struggle but most certainly possible. The World is changing all the time…the question is who is changing it. We Let Kroenke takeover and use Arsenal as his own personal nest egg. He stripped the last few remaining shareholders (many of which were arsenal fans) of their shares, some of which had been passed on from generations. It’s time we got a little revenge and put Arsenal in the hands of it’s rightful owners at the same time….The Fans!
I like the cut of your jib, Ddog. You’ve got a positive mindset. As Henry Ford once said, “Whether you think you can, or you think you can’t–you’re right.”
It is a clever saying, each to their own and all. It reminds me of when someone will tell me how I’m wrong for liking a certain thing or someone.
Don’t know how credible this article is but It was in regards to a financial analyst who had gathered data and determined how much each clubs owner had invested in the club since 2008. Arsenal are one of two clubs who’s owner hasn’t invested a penny. Not 1 cent. Let that sink in. Arsenal generates about half the revenue of what United does and gets ZERO backing from its owner but somehow we are meant to compete with teams like City and Chelsea who’s owners in contrast have invested over a billion euros. No-one is saying that we should be competing with the likes of those corrupt clubs but if Leicesters owners can generate 300million to invest in the club than surely stan could’ve poured or showed the tiniest bit of interest into a club which shows staggering potential. The sad reality is as long as he’s our owner, arsenal have absolutely zero chance of being a European powerhouse
Kronke is doing nothing wrong.
He ligitimately owns the club and it is his choice how he wishes it to be run.. self-sustaining model or not. That is the priviledge of the rich and wealthy business owners world-wide.
Whether we fans like this or not is not necessarily key to a solution.. u can spend your hard earned money on whatever you wish and if that is Arsenal tickets or Arsenal products you can do this as a fan, just like many other supporters of all the other clubs up and down the country.
I believe the only way we will be ahead under the current ownership is through regulation from the football association.. as the article states ‘on a level playing field we would be a truly successful football club.
Other than that it will still take a number of years to correct and sort out the state of things in regards to players, contracts and personnel development.
Don’t forget that a lot of money we have made as a club has been reinvested to produce modern day facilities and training complexes to help us continue as a major club in todays world.. that is more the legacy of Mr Wenger as i see it.
So being a well run club should some day be fruitfull, but not today and maybe not for a year or two more.. the question is how long are the true fans willing to support and love Afc for what it is and always has been for many fans over the decades?
Kroenke is doing nothing wrong legally but that does not mean what he is doing is right. Personally I laugh at your attempt to frame Kroenkes takeover as what AFC ‘is’ and ‘always has been’. Even more so when you imply that ‘true fans’ should support him. That is ludicrous. A true fan would do what is best for Arsenal football club. If Kroenke is seen not to act in the best interests of the club then there is no reason why fans should tolerate him. A democratic model could be very successful. There are other options too…for example..consumer co-ops/ or fan co-ops or worker co-ops. It would need serious thought and consideration, and then mobilisation…but nothing is impossible…. The said communism would never leave Europe in 1988 by 89 the Berlin wall had fallen.
I think we are big enough and wealthy enough to win something..it is not because we are short of money or because of Kronke.. we had a chance to win the league when we came 2nd to Leicester 2015/16.. that failing was down to the manager and players and results there-of.
If we threw all our resourses at winning the league we would stand a good chance of being up there. Unfortunately for the moment we are going to struggle to get past the problems of our current players and contract/wage issues and where our recent history has left us.
Are we a bigger better club than spurs? Yes ..but they are enjoying a good period due to a diligent manager and aquiring the right players.. we should be bettering that with time i’d say.
All the other big six were either in transition or at the end of a managerial reign that’s why we got 2nd. Arsenal were poor that season.
Kroenke has had over 10 years. In those ten years we’ve been promised a lot, and quite honestly it hasn’t happened. You can play the waiting game if you like “ooh but maybe next season” “maybe he’ll spend” “maybe we’ll get the players we need”. Just like at the end of Wenger’s regime but i say why not be proactive now!? Imagine how much better it would feel winning because of decisions you have been a part of. Not just being a spectator of the club you love but actually wielding some sort of power or at least knowing you own a share. Imagine the solidarity between fans knowing that this was their baby and not some billionaires toy. I think it would only be a positive thing for fans, fan culture, and the football club in general
I don’t know why Kroenke would not want to top up an odd transfer budget if it meant us signing better players. When the players are here, then we can go back to the self sustain model, because that is when we’d be forking out less, and we’d likely be a top four side maybe even challenging. At those times he could be taking his money back out of the club, like a loan, by then all we’d need is an odd one or two players to freshen things up a bit. A man as smart as he is could easily manage to give us the leg up we need. I only read the other day that Liv owners done that. I thought they were similar/same to us, but I couldn’t find a full explanation to the difference between both clubs spends. Now it is clear. Plenty of people have already mentioned, and it’s true, Kroenke, sees us as his own personal bank. I hate the way he uses his franchises, it’s sickening, it feels like it should be illegal.
I think you’re right. there is no way he’ll invest, He never has done with any of his other clubs as far as I can tell, why would he start with Arsenal (a team he watches once or twice a year) It’s his safety net…more than that…its his cash cow….he buys shares….Premier league clubs stock increases….and his nest egg grows exponentially. Every win, every Arsenal shirt bought, ultimately serves to safeguard his wealth and financial security. He has no particular interest in Arsenal winning the league as long as they remain in and around the top end of the table. He’s turned Arsenal into a top 4 team, not a title winning team. And although I give full support to Emery, if we do ever win the league again (which looks a long way off right now) It will be certainly be in spite of our Owner and not because of him.
One thing that is constant in life is change.
No pain, No gain
100000 at £25000
1000000 at £2500
10000000 at £250
100’000 fans is a lot but nowhere near Arsenal fan base.
1 million fans is a lot and still it doesn’t count all our fans.
10 million fans would be pushing it, unless we allowed a single fan to purchase many options.
Does it have to be 100’000?
In effect, what we are doing is creating our own share value, would this allow a fan to have multiple shares, assuming they know it is all non profit for the owners?
Not like I think this would ever happen but food for thought.
Will the fans ever let themselves be heard enough, so that they begin organizing – Out marches. That is what’s needed, stop attending games and so on. We need to give Emery a shot first, but if it doesn’t work. We should not say, ah well, here’s a new manager again, lets see. We have to cut the rot out.
We can all go o Arsenal Fan Tv and rant for a hour then get Robbie to buy kreonke out with all the millions he makes from the fan rants
this game is unbeleivable i’m glad i tuned in, sane is so underrated even now he’s so World Class it’s not even funny, and Virgil is worth the money what a Beast and Robertson is an amazing lb!
ok we need Tah and Bailey, let’s make it happen, someone whos very direct and another beast.. tah and mavro now that’s a scary defence twin towers!! holding could slot in when needed, but those two would be great! and bailey is Sane in the making so let’s just buy a couple of those Levrkusen products Kai on the list as well, let’s go shopping it’s january for god sake!!
it took so long to write the post mesmerized 1-1 great game!! 🙂
don’t tell me his not WC 2-1 just wow, sane!! i want bailey even more now!!
The kop has been slayed lol
what a game no? i love football :)…..we need signings now!!
Liverpool unbeaten run over hahahaha Merseyside will be quite tonight ??
Are you as excited as I am John??!!! ?
Yes I am Sue loving it ? I couldn’t handle Liverpool going unbeaten all season.. hope Wolves make their week better on Sunday ? Cazorla has scored twice against Madrid we should bring him back ?
I think I might just have to go to work tomorrow & rip the p**s after all the grief I had last week!! ?
So relieved… after Bobby check out my teeth equalised I was worried!!! That is a huge result for City!! ????
Good old Santi! He’s still got it in him ?
Haha firminho and his glow in the dark veneers ? we were well beaten by them on Saturday but imo Salah and Firminho both dived so they got what they deserved tonight.. I hope they blow that 4 point lead ? do it! They give you grief give it back 10 fold ? he sure does Sue ?
Salah goes down so easily! And that bloody song the fans sing for him ???
Yes I think they got their just deserts tonight!! A lot of their fans are moaning on Twitter saying how they don’t understand Klopp sometimes… he got it all wrong tonight etc etc….. oh but I thought he was the best manager ever???!!!!! ?
He does Sue if he’s so world class like people say then he wouldn’t have to fling himself to the ground to win penalties! Fickle fans Klopp is a genius, Klopp is clueless, Klopp is a genius, Klopp is clueless… Which one is it ? Twitter does my head in too many know it alls and trolls ? and that Jesse Lingard dancing gif has to be the most irritating thing ever haha
And DT the biggest fraud of them all ?
No doubt I’ll hear some of those fickle fans tomorrow!! I’ll just take a box of tissues in for them all – although I’ll need a couple as I’ll be crying with laughter ?
Yes agree about Twitter! Trolls galore!!
I had to Google Dracula from Sesame Street earlier to see how much he looks like Emery! ? you’ve started something now…… ??
Oh you will Sue they’ll probably say Klopp was wrong to leave Shaqiri out of the lineup if he played they would have won etc etc blah blah blah lol I don’t have any pool fans at work thankfully but we have spurs fans ? wait until after the Blackpool game cos we could get embarrassed yet ? haha don’t forget Miki the Armenian bear Grylls ? Michael ballack the German Matt Damon ?
Oh that must be awful working with Spuds fans, especially after the cup defeat ?
God I hope we don’t lose on Saturday, doesn’t bear thinking about!! Tranmere v Spuds is tomorrow… better not be on BBC1 as there’ll be no Eastenders ?
Haha Ballack! If I think of any… I’ll let you know…. might have a long wait though ?
It’s not easy Sue but you get used to it! I used to give tott fans lots of stick so now I have to take it on the chin ? if it’s Friday night then most likely BBC1 so looks like no EastEnders ? I haven’t watched soaps in about 4 years so I’m good ? I’m actually worried about that game I can’t believe I’m worried about Blackpool ? yes you’ll think of something Sue ??
??
?? Haha… glad Liverfool run for unbeaten season is over.
They n their supporters are doomed to fail. I rather Man C win the title than them if there isn’t any other team.
So am I! Really good goals from Aguero & Sane ?
Yes I agree – I always want City to win the league, if we don’t!
Two things. First, if we go to a fan based model. You are subject to the whims of the fans, who od not always look out for the long term interest of the club because of a constant desire to perform in the short term. An owner who is interested in the the long term value of his investment is much more likely to make decision in the best interest of the club. Long term value requires the club to generate revenue and perform on the pitch.
Second, the problem has not been Kroenke but the previous regime, which completely mismanaged recruitment. This is the reason Arsenal are lagging other clubs not ownership. Our wages are equal to Liverpool’s but they have drastically outperformed us in recruit and therefore on the pitch.
The Kroenke out narrative is due to the poor performance of the previous regime and inability to blame a sacred cow.
I think SK had a hand in our current plight.
The recruitment and wage structure are a complete screw up. He had allowed AW to just sit back and not do much during transfer windows.
I’m sure he signs the wage bill every now and then.
If he is not aware of the wage structure, it is something very wrong. Some one-shot wonder players just work hard for 1 season to be rewarded with hefty pay rise after which spent seasons rotting away.
If he is not at fault, who is?
I completely agree with your statements. The biggest flaw is not putting the current structure in place before but he and most of the fanbase had faith in Wenger. Changing the structure before probably would not been politically viable as it seems the vast majority of the fan base still had faith in Wenger.
He is culpable for the underperformance, but the previous regime is far more culpable. The club is very healthy financially with some of the top executives in football. Kroenke does not put any money in the club but also does not take any out.
In my humble opinion in January and Summer we need to focus on three things
1. Upgrade starting Defence
2. Creativity in central midfield
3. Wingers
We are fine up front; GK and defensive midfielders, bench defenders
Also bring back/promote:
Nelson, Nketiah, Smith-Rowe, Chambers, Niles Ospina for the bench next season
Every idea has its pros and cons. But if SK is not going to make signings, we have to rid him no matter what comes next.
Otherwise, we will soon become a mid-tier team. Noticed we now starting to have trouble attracting players.
This is a very good point. I think Wenger battled this in his final years. When you can’t attract top tier players you’re forced to pay top tier prices (transfer fees and salaries) for second tier players. We have a bunch of these at Arsenal now.
Roy Keane talked about this a lot in his autobiography. He just couldn’t convince good players to go play at Sunderland when he was managing there. We don’t quite have the problems a Sunderland would have in that regard yet, but we’re slipping in that direction . . .
Two important goals by Santi Cazorla yesterday to draw with Real Madrid
Good job Caz!
carzola, what a miss for arsenal. how on earth did we let him go. 2 superb goals .
i heard he left by plane 😉
My view on Stan Kroenke dropped to the point that he is lower than a snake’s duodenum, due to his action (exercising his legal right) in forcing the members of the Arsenal Supporters Trust to sell their shares.
I now have a voodoo doll in his likeness and a large supply of very sharp long pins!
Add a pin for me. 🙂
So I’ve just watched the highlights of City v Liverpool on YouTube….. I’m so happy right now – only normally like this when we’ve played & won!!
Of all the things to be trending – Dejan Lovren is….. I wonder why ??
I think out of City, United, Spurs, Chelsea and Liverpool, I’d prefer Liverpool to win the Premier League, especially since they haven’t won it before and I hate the other teams.
But I hope we can win it someday
Bet you was rooting for them last night ForeverGooner. Was our invisible record ever on you’re mind. Having been to Liverpool many times in the 70’s and seeing hooliganism at it’s very worst they’re the last team I would root for.
Something has to change. ‘Greedy Stan Kroenke’ does not care about Arsenal the way the supporters do, in fact he is a guarantee of mediocrity. While ownership of more than one club in England would not be tolerated it seems owning FIVE major clubs over different sports is OK. That’s how Kroenke fuels his empire of mediocrity. To reach the heights again I cannot see anything other than the model you suggest creating change. How does is get organised? Personally I also think we need legal changes in the football world, so that it is not possible to have a five major club ownership. It has led to to the greedy man’s ‘favouritism’ of the LA Rams within his club empire and all the big financial deals channelled towards them. Many of those deals are property deals in LA and show ‘Greedy Stan’s’ real agenda. Any scheme or method that would get rid of the greedyman would bring our club back home again.
sounds to me like this is a huge slice of leftover christmas turkey pie. i cannot see this ever happening. if we cannot get along on here for more than a day or two, then how are we expected to get along , especially where there is money involved. all very well in an ideal world, but i will wait and see how this pans out. i wont be holding my breath though.
I’m okay with Kroenke. The majority said, “as soon as Wenger is gone we’ll know if the problem was the manager or the board/owner.” Wenger is gone, fans are back enthusiastic at the stadium, we have a legitimate chance at the top scorer in the league (and keeping him, unlike RVP), and we’re getting CHARACTER in the team, as opposed to fancy flick boys and gold-studded ankles. We still have that problem for sure, and we’re still lacking talent in loads of areas, but things are generally more positive than even the year we “contended” with Leicester for the title. If we stick to “as soon as Wenger is gone we’ll know if the problem was the manager or the board/owner”, then no one is giving a fair shake to Kroenke and the board to see if Wenger was the problem. It’s been a few months!!! Since Wenger left, we signed 5 players (one summer). When did that come close to happening recently under Wenger? It seems, even with a low budget, he wouldn’t sign players. He was more interested in the financial “model” than competing. So here we are, still just months removed from his removal, and we’re condemning Kroenke who has had ONE transfer window post-Wenger in which we signed 5 players (4 of which look like improvements on our previous roster), and we’re jumping all over Kroenke. It’s a bit juvenile, testosterone-driven and nowhere near reasonable thought. Give Kroenke time post-the-dictatorship, and let’s revisit this premature argument in September 2019.
You totally ignored the CEO who had final say on issues such as contracts and transfers.
An example and a clear one is the last Jan of Wengers last season, Wenger wanted a CB and the rumors was linking us to Evans as we may get him on a bargain… We didn’t buy a CB as Gazidis spent too long with BvB trying to penny pinch.
Ramsey contract was pulled when Raul took over from Gazidis, not when Wenger left.
“Since Wenger left, we signed 5 players (one summer). When did that come close to happening recently under Wenger?”
17/18 season seen Arsenal recruit 5 players throughout the year, 3 in the summer and 2 in the winter. Aubameyang, Lacazette, Mkhitaryan, Mavropanos and Kolasinac.
Credit to Sven in that one as well though, he was the one who was in charge of the recruiting and we seen this with Mkhi over Martial for Alexis. Wenger wanted Martial.
16/17 season Arsenal made 5 transfers: Xhaka, Mustafi, Holding, Perez and Asano. This was the year Wenger pushed to get Lacazette and I believe we was quoted £35 million instead of the larger fee we ended up paying 12 months later! Mustafi appears to have been a panic buy from the board as we could have had him weeks earlier but we didn’t, not till other targets was missed due to lack of funds.
15/16 was the famous Only Cech summer.
14/15 season: Alexis, Welbeck, Chambers, Debuchy, Gabriel, Ospina and Bielik. 7 this season..
So yeah… Most years. I could keep going back and show how Arsenal had 5 new faces the season before the last one I said, 4 the year before that, 9 purchases + 2 loans the year before that…
I suggest you check your facts 😉
Google transfermarket and Arsenal, can find the history on their site.
@drayton
With what you have written here it is evident you have a small nose and you can’t see beyond it.
Yes, quite evident
I’d prefer debate over insult, if you’re able.
@Drayton.
Okay I will debate with you.
But first you wrote this
”I’m okay with Kroenke.”
You are OKay with Kronke fine no problem
Tell us what you know about Kronke
I’m just stating that it’s unfair to judge the guy on our transfers when he has had ONE transfer window of which the miserly Wenger has not had his dictatorial, stubborn hands on. In that window, we signed 4 players who have improved the team (Torreira, Sokratis, Guendouzi and Leno). It’s not about what I know about Kroenke. I just think it’s entirely naive to bash the guy this early post-Wenger. We’ll see what January and the summer bring, and that will give us a better scope on Kroenke’s performance. Oh, and in case you hadn’t noticed, we just smashed our transfer record twice last year to sign our 2 best players. Hmmm
@Drayton
I know what you think about Kroenke.
I don’t know what you know about Kroenke.
I ask again, what do you know a Kroenke?
Please answer my question.
What do you know about Kroenke?
Fans would be worse to be honest, mid-term relegation or outright administration would be a possibility that way. Ideally it would be someone who cares (for whatever reason see City) or someone who understands the market well (see Liverpool.)
by cares i mean wants trophies/prestige and has the money to employ people to do that. Obviously Arsenal fans care likely more harm than good that way though.
Mate, that’s a really well thought-out piece. But if we are unable to raise the cash to buy out Kroenke, only a total boycott of Arsenal matches will force him to sell. Remember, that-s how we got Arsene Wenger out. I don’t want to imagine that it would take so long like the many years of Wenger’s mediocrity before we take action!
goons
Arsenal is no more we are some McDonalds now. Get used to it. Things can be prevented but what we have now cant be fixed its already over.
Ohh, if forgot to say, Arsenal is not the biggest club in london anymore and fan base from abroad is slowly aging and fading away. The best thing Arsenal can archive is turning into Spurs 2. Buying unproven and rejects and hope for the best.
Like Fabragas and Henry and other unkowns.
Sigh – articles like this make me sad. Not because of the content but because they remind me I am a fellow of the ICAEW. The nonsense spoken is almost criminal. Do you not realise that the rules of the market do not actually allow you to gather 60k worth of buddies to make a challenge? Do you not think – Mr Article Writer – that Mr Usmanov might have 60k buddies more infuential than yours?
That is kind of the point. A challenge to the market is singular. That is why Kronke reached the level of ownership he did. Even the Board couldn’t keep him out. The regulations don’t say – woah buddy that is so cool, just turn up with your 60k of your friends and it will all be ok because that is how capitalism works.
I mean seriously……