TIME TO ASSESS OUR RESULTS WITH THE TOP FIVE CLUBS SINCE 2008 – THE DATE SOME FANS BELIEVE OUR DECLINE STARTED – THE SECOND CLUB TO LOOK AT IS THAT OTHER MANCHESTER CLUB – NOISY MAN UNITED:
The first thing that struck me was the complete difference as far as our results over the entire history of the three clubs, Arsenal, Man City and Man United.
Whereas we have beaten City more than any other club in top flight football, United are the team we have lost the most too.
Of course, it does portray the differences between the two Manchester clubs before the oil money changed City… and football… forever, but it is worth knowing this fact for future references.
Another thing I noticed when visiting the United websites, was the boast that the club had won sixty-six trophies…. but included in that figure was the fact that they had won twenty (I thought it was seventeen?) Charity/Community Shields – something that we have debated time and time again on JustArsenal as to whether they really are “trophies”?
It seems that, for United, as they are affiliated matches, they should be included in the role of honour and, as we have won this fifteen times (seven under AW) perhaps The Arsenal should also include them in our role of honour?
So, on to the figures and in all competitions, having played 235 times, United have won 97, drawn 53 and lost 85. (Source Wikipedia).
Of the 65 games played against us in the PL, they have won 28, drawn 18 and lost 19 (Source PL).
From 1996 through to 2008 (same criteria used for City (except City didn’t return to the top flight until 2000) under AW, the results were remarkably even – Won 12 Lost 12 Drawn 8 and when we think that leaving Highbury, The Emirates, DD sacked and the Kroenke takeover were all sandwiched into those dates, the club were most certainly worthy of the label as one of the two top teams in England.
But it was after this date that we see the awful decline against United under AW – The Arsenal recorded this incredible set of stats:
Won 4 Lost 15 Drawn 8 – from 2009 to 2018, up and until AW left the club.
From 2019 to January 2021 The Arsenal have Won 3 Lost 1 Drawn 2 under UE and MA.
So there can be no argument whatsoever that AW failed from 2009, during which we were humbled and humiliated on two occasions 6-0 and 8-2 (their biggest top flight victory) against United.
The media were completely correct in saying we were second best to the club we had battled head-to-head for so long, and there are many interpretations as to how/why this complete turnaround occurred.
Some say the Kroenke/Emirates influence was part of the problem, while others say the style of play that AW decided to impose was to blame, along with some very average signings and missed opportunities… I believe it was a bit of all these, but the buck stops with the manager… AW.
What has to be remembered though, is that, despite the calamitous and factual record against them, we still finished in the top four, won fa cups and proceeded to the knockout stages of the CL!!!
So was it just United and Sir Alex Ferguson who sussed AW out?
It seems that Man City didn’t, so did Chelsea, Liverpool or the spuds?
Next up Chelsea!!!
………
In summary then:
- Man United completely dominated us in the PL from 2009 onwards and AW could not stop the trend – although we had some better FA cup results.
- When judging AW, there can be no doubt whatsoever that he failed miserably against United from 2009 and never looked likely to match them in the league games played.
- The media were correct in their assessment of the two clubs, when comparing each other.
- Recent results have shown that The Arsenal have started to recover from those dark days.
I have left this final piece of football history for those Arsenal fans who love to bring up “numerous humiliations” on a regular basis.
It took United 59 years to avenge a Tom Whittaker managed Arsenal team defeat back in 1952…. and the score then? 8-2 to The Arsenal!!!
I hope it doesn’t take us the same amount of time to repeat our own “humiliation” again, as I will be pushing up the daises by then!!!
Just as ironic, United’s biggest defeat was the 6-1 home demolition by spuds in October 2020!!!
So, one for and one against as I look at the claims made against AW and the top clubs – I hope that the other “factoids” such as the 1952 8-2 and adding the Community Shield to the list of trophies are of interest – I am sure that Chelsea and “The Special One” will be just as interesting…. to me anyway!!!!
Ken1945.
Facts and figures taken from Wikipedia – euro rivals – premier league websites.
Good report but one incorrect fact Arsenal have not beaten Manchester United 8 2 the last time Arsenal scored eight was against Grimsby in 1948 and is the only time Arsenal have scored 8 since football resumed afyer the second workd war
Stuart, thanks for the correction – I stupidly took it from a Facebook headline without checking the facts.
My humble apologies to one and all.
Nice article. It does seem like we’re heading out of the times when we were certain not to win “big 6” teams. I remember AWs horrendous Mourinho record.
Off topic, how would Arsenal fans like a triple swoop from Brighton?
Ryan
White
Bissouma?
Maybe sweeten the deal with either one of AMN, Nketiah, Nelson, Mari, Holding..?
In view of our previous discourse on these historical pieces you write KEN, I will restrict any comment to merely a well done on thorough research , as always.
Wenger’s last two seasons at Arsenal were awful, but it doesn’t change his legendary status to me
No other manager in the history of the longest running and biggest club football competition in the world – the FA cup – has won more trophies. Opinions matter little in the face of those fact. Wenger was and is a Legend.
First 10 years…absolutely brilliant!
Next 12 years…completely unacceptable!
Probably the most simplistic way of looking at Wenger’s time at Arsenal.
AW should have left with his legendary status still intact, rather he stubornly chose to stay.
AW is still and shall always be Arsenal legend despite the failings in his last years. Good report though
Agreed even his worse years are way above than what we have had to witness these last 3 years
Imagine if he had finished 8 th 2 years in a row with the team we had last season ,that never would have happened .
Imagine if we went 9 years straight without a trophy, and still didn’t change our manager? The last 3 years have nothing on that!
Probably would have won the PL in 2015/16 but the negative fans started their embarrassing self-destructive attacks on AW and the club – even as we were in 1st place.
Fans went ballistic trying to sabotage the club that year, the players felt it, calling out AFTV and other negative influences, people throwing shoes at players etc.
If your team is in 1st place and stand a real chance to win the PL, then why are you sabotaging your own club? These hyper-negative attention-seeking trash undermined morale and solidarity and are 100% responsible for the results that year. Could have been 1st, but came in 2nd.That’s the fault of the fans–who of course demand accountability from everyone but themselves. Everything the fans do is perfect or meaningless, somehow, the fans can justify any stupid thing they do, including threatening players families. Arsenal is about class, but Arsenal fans don’t know the meaning of the word.
Arsenal’s decline since then has as much to do with fans taking on an adversarial relationship with their club en masse as it does anything else. You can change managers every half season if you want, won’t change a thing. So long as fans refuse to support their club and act like entitled crybabies, there will be zero progress.
I predicted in 2015 that the emergence of these negative fans as the most visible segment of the fanbase would lead to a downward spiral and to talent no longer wanting to come work at Arsenal Football Club. It’s EXACTLY what happened.
Players don’t avoid this club only because we’re out of Europe now, but also because Arsenal’s fanbase is now notorious worldwide as complete pieces of sh__. If I was Xhaka, Bellerin, Sanchez or any other player the fans have gone out of their way to disrespect, insult and threaten, I would flip fans the bird too. They don’t deserve a top class team, they don’t deserve silverware, on the behaviour I have seen since 2015, they deserve relegation.
Fans are deluded if they think players came to play for Arsenal just because it is Arsenal, they came to learn from AW.
If Arteta can manage to get us back into top 6 I won’t be that surprised–the team is not as bad as everyone says it is. But I don’t think the fans–the hyper negative fans especially–deserve that.
Relegation is what is needed to smoke the cockroaches out of the club. Most of these hyper-negative people are fairweather fans that only want to support a club when it wins. Fans are part of the team and need a winning mentality of solidarity and teamwork. You don’t see Xhaka screaming at other players that they’ll be sold the next day because of a random error and throwing his shoe at them. Fans shouldn’t be seen pulling that bullsh__ either.
AW was the best manager this club will probably ever have. And “fans” like this idiot writer do nothing but disrespect him and his legacy. You don’t know class, solidarity or any of the club’s values. I wish there was a movement to get the trash fans out of the club, because they’ve done as much damage as anyone.
Stephan, you can call me idiotic if you want, but can I suggest that you sit down and read what my article was about, before making such a claim?
This was about the results against ONE club from 2009 onwards and not about the overall legacy that our greatest ever manager has left us with.
Up until that remark, I was agreeing with you 100%, but it seems you fall into the same catagory as those fans you, seemingly, despise.
No one supports /supported MA more than myself and if you read my article on Manchester City during the same period you would have know that!!!
So get off your high horse and write something yourself – I’m sure it will be a good read.
What a weird post Stephan ,I actually had to read your second half of your post a few times and I still don’t get where you have gone with this .
Reading Ken’s reply he seems just as perplexed as I am
Very odd post seeing your first half was a good read .
Stephan.
This writer has been working tirelessly and putting a lot of effort in defending the great Arsene Wenger against those who are twisting facts and shamelessly making up lies in broad daylight just to discredit our beloved retired manager. Some of which have gone as far as calling the invincible a fluke. An Arsenal fan calling the invincible a fluke, does it get any lower than that?
This article is just one of the series of articles he write to present facts vs fiction which paint a very different picture compared to the lies that are said about Wenger’s so called failures.
Perhaps if you ask the admin he will give you the links to the articles in question.
It is a very hard job he is doing considering people are not comfortable in the truth and would rather take comfort in fake news, twisted data and made up stats but a big respect to him for keeping on.
You are very wrong about the writer because you have accused him of something he is so tirelessly fighting to put the record straight. Perhaps if you read the whole series you are going to have more appreciation of what he is doing.
Cheers!
@Stephan Luc Larose
To put any blame whatsoever for Wenger’s/Arsenal’s consistent failings on the fans is absolutely ridiculous!
Arsenal have had the most patient fans I’ve ever seen from ANY club! Yes there were protests, empty stadium, booing, but this didn’t happen under the end of Wenger’s reign, and what did you expect? We had been so poor, for so long.
It’s one thing to fail, but to do it for so long, and worse, not even bother changing anything (apart from a token formation change right at the end, which teams quickly adapted to seeing as the tactics were the same) is why some were so irate. If anything, Wenger was extremely lucky to have the fans support for so long during our long regression under his watch.
Stephan, it is not the fan’s fault; they are not paid a relative king’s ransom to manage a football team or play professional football. They just pay their hard earnt pounds to follow a football team and expect “professionals” to earn their money.
Ken, the major reason Alex Ferguson was successful overall against Arsene Wenger is that he didn’t tolerate poor performance and constantly renewed his teams, by moving players on (no matter their status) and replacing them with others. Change was incremental, so that the winning mentality and team ethos were retained.
There was no way Ferguson would have dismantled “the Invincibles” and allow the character of those physically and mentally strong players to dissipate so quickly.
Arsenal went from a team that faced down Manchester United, to one that was virtually beaten before they took the field.
Stephe if u read Ken’s article again, u’d wish to apologise to him!
Wenger did great between 1996-2004.
After that it was we a slow but sure decline.
He over stayed his time and it was so hurtful seeing fans shout him down out of the club in 2017.
He let his ego, stubbornness and pride get in the way. He refused to change with the hectic football times.
Great article Ken! Too bad to see that Stephan seems to have misunderstood the point. Rrgarding the topic, well not surprised the cheaters have a better record against us. The only thing which made me a little angry was that even after SAF retired, we still sonehow lost against ManU. That is one of my criticisms of AW.