Are Arsenal fans toxic? The case for and against. by Jon Fox
It is undeniable that Arsenal are a huge club with a massive global fanbase. As such it would be incredible if we did not have a wide variety of views on almost everything to do with our club. Other huge clubs, esp English ones, will be in that same position.
My mission is to find out the truth or falseness of the claim that Arsenal fans are far too critical and whether or not we are more “toxic” than other massive English clubs. I will examine the case for and against that claim, to decide whether it be true, false or unproven. By “massive clubs”, I mean just the obvious two in United and Liverpool.
I contend that such as Man City and Chelsea, while both are successful teams, neither approaches the sheer size, history and scale of global popularity of those three.
And lower down still, far lower, we find such as Spurs, a team that according to Domesday Book, apparently once won the old English Division One and even the Double. Shortly after that, the meteorite struck the Earth, and all the dinosaurs were wiped out! Sorry Spuds fans, I really did not mean to insult EITHER of you!!
Let us start with social media to find out how our fans think. Not that social media is particularly a true representative sample of our whole global fanbase but as it is global, it does at least give us a chance to see what fans around the world- admittedly a tiny sample only – actually think. It is surely true that even on JA, the most popular Arsenal site BY FAR (THAT’S FOR YOU PAT, though it’s still true, so I’ll happily say it), that we all come from far and wide, and personally I could not hope for a better sample of our thoughts.
For balance, I must, even on ANY subject at all, when social media is involved, you will always find a great deal of critical comments, and that applies to almost anything I can think of, not just Arsenal, not just sport and not just, well make you own list! So, in seeking the truth, we know that many comments will definitely be critical in some ways, and that needs to be built in and allowed for before we even start.
Now, as I do, doubtless a number of other Gooners go, from time to time, on sites belonging to United, Liverpool and other inferior clubs too.
What I notice immediately is sites of those are also massive are also hugely critical and are also global in nature, which is of course good. By comparison, apart from perhaps a few grumpy old gits like me and a number of grumpy younger gits like, well you know who – or perhaps you don’t, but that is not the point – but Ad Pats site is relatively polite, at least to each other. I did say RELATIVELY!! Though it seems very critical of two people; in order Arteta and Edu, followed next in criticism of Kroenke Senior, but less to Josh.
You should see what United sites say about some of their people, esp GLAZERS, RANGNICK AND POGBA! By comparison most Scousers seem to adore Klopp and tolerate FSG with no special level of criticism and a deal of praise. So, we are possibly less toxic than United and far more so than Liverpool, it might seem. Well, yes, if you read only those current sites, as many do.
But I been around the block a few times and back and have been on sites for a long while too, and I have also seen how very much those fan sites change in levels of criticism as soon as their team wins or fails to win a few matches, sometimes even one single match. A few weeks ago, when it seemed likely that MA would get us into CL, the level of direct criticism, for a short while, was noticeably less than before that time, and far less than now.
If you imagine we Gooners are alone in this, then you are very wrong my friends. Because the truth is that humans and esp football fans, collectively, and I stress COLLECTIVELY, are not that different from other teams’ fans. Not those who reside and watch in Britain anyway. There is a noticeable level of what I would call anti cynicism or gullibility, from some fans from certain other countries, which is more to do with culture, with perhaps less stiff and formal attitudes than in the traditional stiff upper lip older British attitude.
However, even that British reserve is disappearing fast, as each generation succeeds the previous one. That is not at all a criticism but simply an observation of how humans are evolving and becoming less formal, more mingled and overall is massive plus IMO. We are all now far more connected to each other, thanks to social media and this benefit is hugely still under recognised by many and undervalued. But I digress.
I have also been on other club’s fan sites, although I will not advertise them here. One team near to where I live is Crystal Palace and I have several friends who are Palace fans. I have even attended three Palace home matches this season- they lost two and drew the other – and their fans never stopped singing and cheering. I was massively impressed by the attitudes of fans of this far smaller club, and it set me thinking that fans of smaller clubs feel less ‘entitled’ than do large clubs’ fans. I have not been to such as Hartlepool and Crawley and that ilk, so cannot say that fans at that level are not toxic but it seems clear to me that the bigger and more expectations a club is and has, the more the fans of that club demand.
West Ham is another club which has been fast improving under Moyes and their fans too are becoming more demanding, and it is common to hear on TALKSPORT, how DAVID GOLD and DAVID SULLIVAN are supposedly holding that club back. Higher expectations and demands you see!
Getting back to Arsenal we need to mention the Arsene Werner factor. Fans who some decades old before the name of Wenger was heard at Arsenal have found it easier, not easy but easier, to bear the fall away from his glory years. But younger fans who only started with or in Wengers time have often seemed to think, some of them, that those great glory years MUST be ours for ever We older fans know that is not how football works. One day in the future, City and Liverpool will find that out too.
All things change and life evolves, and that includes football teams. We at Arsenal, who have been in the top division for 103 years, uniquely in Britain, are extremely fortunate to be Gooners at all, IMO.
I must say, being the age I am, I find the demand from some of our fans to make Top Four or else they will slaughter us in print, to be rage for rages sake. When, as we oldies have done, we remember finishing 17th out of 22 back in, I think 1973, and when, as I was, in a crowd of 4554 in 1966 at home to Leeds when finishing 13th and Billy Wright, our then manager was sacked shortly after that, finishing fifth as we did this year does not seem unbearable, it really doesn’t.
It all depends on what you expect and demand. It is better and wiser not to expect or demand any position but to be grateful for having the sense and good fortune to be a Gooner in the first place and to thank our lucky stars for that.
After all my friends, you might have been a Spud and then had three rather than two Spuds on your plate, mashed of course!
Oh, and that verdict? Well UNPROVEN of course!
Though TBH, If you wish and have you own life views but have not the desire to look at all sides of any case, you can make anything in sport, as in life, guilty or innocent, just as you are personally, please! Am I right!
COYG
Jon Fox
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I’m not toxic at all, I just want the toxic material gathered over the years by our generous, loving ,caring, “legendry hero” scrubbed off and binned. Mikel has done the housekeeping pretty well, disinfected the messed up areas. We have a set of young talent, and need to add some more to blend with the experience. With Laca gone, we can add a lethal CF and we take off from our 5th spot to the top 3. If Pepe can shape up or ship out, we do not need to over burden a young Saka. Shame on Pepe. Saliba is keen to player under Mikel, that itself is a new signing and how well the dressing room is now. From looking up to seniors like Ozil, Mustafi, Kolasinac, Laca, he can now draw inspiration and motivation from Mikel and his coaches.
What an in-depth reply to the article ,atleast you did t go off course and talk about Ozil and Wenger again “oh wait “……
LC I agree with you, but am puzzled at one cryptic comment. Who is the “legendary hero” you refer to, as I have no clue and nor will many others?
If meanings are not clear then posts are wasted, which in your case, would be a shame.
However, it is good to debate with a fellow “glass half full” fan on JA. as it is DEPRESSINGLY dominated by “glass half empty” negative pessimists. Sigh!
“Who is this legendary hero “?
Lol as if you didn’t know jonny boy .
I agree, we are in a much better place than August 2018 and November 2019. For the first time in many years we have a strong foundation to build on, and I’m sure we will get better 🔴⚪️
Arsenal fans are in fact exactly the same as all football fans in every club in the world. Truthfully Arsenal and Tottenham fans are exactly the same.
Are we more toxic than any other fan base. No exactly the same as every other fan base.
Heavily biased likely to swing from ardent supporters to ardent critics dep
ending on results. Of course that is the football fan all over full of flaws vast over reactions and demenour of outrage and dramatic over kill. Why us they All cry. May it always be so.
Spot on. The fans’ frustations are understandable, because they’ve been investing a lot of time and money to watch their favorite teams
I just wish most of them realize that Kroenke would likely not be quiet, if Arteta can’t show a progress by the end of next season. Let’s trust the current regime for now
Good read Mr Jon. May the Fox be with you.
Witty! I might even use it myself!
Excellent quip
Outside fan site like this one there is no opportunity to be critical or toxic against the club because at least where I am from we have Man utd, Chelsea and Liverpool fans to deal with on a daily basis.
Yes it is our right to be demanding top 4 as a minimum because that is the level we are at the moment or the level the great Arsene left us at. Arteta, Edu and Kroenke are taking us from that level to the level where our target is EL or just finishing in the top 10.
Some fans are refusing that and others have accepted it gladly like the writer of this article. We are not a 1970 Arsenal nor are we Crystal Palace level. When we reach that level we will be there to support the club avoiding relegation but we are not there yet and all who are unhappy with how things have been going are doing so because they don’t want to see the club go that way.
If it happens Crystal Palace reaching the level we are at the moment don’t expect their fans to sing and cheer when their team and manager are giving top 4 away by embarrassing losses against smaller clubs.
When Wenger was sacked we had finished 6th, not 4th !!
Exactly. He resigned because 5th and 6th is not an acceptable level for Arsenal.
Haha good one HH
He trapped himself there Dan 😂
Says the one who reckons Wenger resigned 😂😂😂
Over his head it flew 😂
He didn’t resign though, he was sacked.
May be wenger was fired because he had become stale, stagnant, and was on a very slow but steady downwards trend?
He started off fighting for 1st place (Winning titles between 1996-2004. Then after that it was a very slow but sure decline.
May be the club had accepted that wenger had reached a ceiling in the second half of his tenure? Very predictable.
The Arteta ceiling is unknown and unpredictable at the moment, might turn out to be a very good manager or a typical championship or assistant level type of manager, we don’t know at the moment.
It’s comparable to an Older Striker vs Young striker. For example, We know Laca’s ceiling, nothing will dramatically change or improve with him. On the other hand you have Nketia who is younger, he might turn out to be the typical (Afobe, Akpom etc) but we don’t know how he might turn up. So his ceiling is not yet defined for now. You either continue with Laca or give Nketia a chance, try him.
Same with wenger vs Arteta. Wenger was tried / tested (10 plus years) where it was becoming pretty easy to predict whereabouts we would end up in the table each season after a few games..
With wenger we knew there was no serious chance for the CL trophy or the EPL title anymore.. He had plateaued.
Goonster and you think that MA has any chance of a serious chance of the PL or CL title?
First of all, you have to qualify and, despite MA saying he would win the CL in three years, we haven’t even done the initial qualifying deed.
Secondly, after finishing 8th 8th and 5th with a points total that saw us so far behind city and pool it’s frightening…. and that’s despite everything that MA has done.
I don’t blame MA for the PL situation.
Just as Wenger and Emery found out, the big three monetary backed clubs (plus Newcastle now) will always prevail.
If Mikel does achieve top four, CL participation and wins cups during his time, I’ll be happy – simply because that’s a realistic stance to take in my opinion.
What is his mistake, was not securing CL football at the end of this season – so what would you prefer, regular CL football and all that brings, accepting europa league football or having no european football at all.
Plateaued or not, Wenger kept us as a top four club until his last two seasons, it’s now been three seasons under Arteta, including no european football for the first time in over two decades – they are the facts my friend and Wenger resigned because of those two last years – watching the last three seasons since he left, perhaps he should have stayed?
@Ken1945
May be Arteta can win the CL league if given as much time as wenger was given? Give him 25 years or 10 years like wenger was given then let’s see if he can win it.
Are you willing to grant him that long or you just reserve that kind of time to wenger? 🤞😊
Anyways..,
Wenger had stagnated, plateaued, had become stale, dormant etc.. We were going nowhere with him.. the only way we were truly going with was down the table with him. The objective reality (truth) shows that but as always you just don’t want to accept or believe it.
And if Arteta becomes a Top 4 is like a trophy person himself then I would want him out of there as soon as possible. I want him to get Challenge for the Top 3 places and start taking points points off the Top 2 clubs (City and Liverpool). That’s my goal for him next season.. If he fails in that next season then I think we should be replaced..
So again, I don’t care anymore about just being in the champions league year after year with Zero chance of doing anything in there. It just becomes very embarrassing / cringeworthy just making up numbers in there every season knowing we ain’t got a chance to win it (finish 4th, qualify, get out of the group stages, get knocked out in the last 16, then repeat the same old predictable cycle next season and the season after that and the season after that and the season after that and………)
The same with the EPL title, if I detect that Arteta is the type that is happy with just about holding onto that Top 4 position or that 8th place position in the league every season with no chance of challenging for the the the title then I would want him out as soon as possible..
I don’t know about you but just about finishing in the Top 4, qualifying for the CL and being knocked out in the last 16 each season does not excite me anymore. Just about finishing in the Top 4 in the league each season is not exciting for me anymore. We have been through that for more than 15 years. Now I want our managers to get beyond just 4th place and challenge/ win the title. Tired of “But we qualified for the champions league” talk. I want to see actual progress in there. No more get making up numbers in the EPL and CL..
I look around and all our rivals have won the CL apart from City, but City are actually pushing the best they can to win it, they are not in there to make up numbers and just getting out of the group stages.
United, Liverpool, Chelsea have all won the EPL and CL titles in recent years. City are pushing like crazy for a CL trophy.
Now we have Newcastle to contend with. Can’t just watch these teams / clubs come in, overtake us, start winning EPL and CL trophies while we keep waxing about “But but we made CL this and that season. But we finished in the top 4 this and that season blah blah”.
Arteta has to show more steady progress next season, has to finish comfortably in the Top 4 by challenging for 3rd place and start taking points off the Top 2 teams (City and Liverpool). That’s my target for him next season.. He has been achieving my targets since he got here even if at a C> level instead of at A+ level.. He has been dragging through instead of sailing through.
Again, Arteta has to achieve those things next season or he has to be let go and someone else be given a go too..
You actually prove my point, when you mention that “United, chelsea and liverpool have all won the CL in recent seasons – three clubs that have always invested heavily in world class players.
City have won the PL four times in five years, I believe, further enforcing my view that these clubs will dominate the PL for years to come…. and who knows what Newcastle will do to unbalance the pyramid even further?
As for giving MA time, it’s you who are not prepared to give him that commodity it seems.
I believe that, if MA can get consistency from his players / game plan and transfer policies, he will become a top manager.
There were so many ups and downs last season, one never knew what performance one would witness – the home and away games against the spuds as perfect examples.
There never seemed a plan B and some of the extraordinary team selections, Xhaka at left back a perfect example, were pointers to see that Mikel is still learning on the job – should he be doing it at The Arsenal?
I assume he and Edu work as a partnership with regards to contracts, players in and out?
Someone compared them to Wenger and Dein, can you believe that?
To say that the transfers in have been better than before they took over, is laughable – from the Willian debacle to the £50,000,000 paid for White.
Meanwhile, we are giving players away, paying their salaries for the rest of the season, giving ridiculous buy out clauses for loan players and ending the season with a skeleton squad of players.
Mikel and Edu have to get this area right, if we have any chance of competing in the top six, let alone the top four.
I have no problem with Mikel deciding the players he needs to deploy his game plan, just wish I had an idea what his game plan was from one match to the next.
I am over Arsene Wenger and only comment when others say things that aren’t correct.
He was the greatest man ager the club has ever had in my lifetime and was totally disrespected by a section of our fan base – that’s my opinion, but it has nothing to do with where we are today.
I don’t compare Arsene with Mikel, but I compare where the club has performed in all areas under them… simple as that.
As long as I see 100% commitment, a sensible game plan, a plan B, sensible contract negotiations and Mikel taking responsibility for his mistakes while learning on the job, he will have my support – that hasn’t happened to date – and if we do all the above, win cups and compete, why would I put a time scale on his tenure at the club?
He has done that himself, by saying that he would win the CL in three years.
I don’t expect him to do that, neither do I expect him to win the PL, but that doesn’t mean he will be a failure… if he does, then he will be recognised as being up there with Herbert Chapman, Bertie Mee, George Graham and Arsene Wenger – I sincerely hope he will be.
So grateful you have explained it so well.
I do hope KEN 1945 reads your post as I concur with every word you write.
He hasn’t really, Jon Fox. It’s just what you want to hear that’s all.
Wenger had the rug pulled out from under him with the building of the new stadium and the selling off of the best squad that the club has ever had…..
Are you kidding?
Wenger wanted time to prove he could get us back. I loved many things about Wenger but he couldn’t let go and didn’t accept his time was gone
I hated the way it ended and for such a bright individual he should have known when to bow out.
Had Wenger or Emery got the support that Arteta has been given, we would have been so far by now.
It’s funny how Arsenal management and some section of the fans does things. They didn’t support two of the best managers in the game instead one resigned and the other fired for failure to get top 4 but they give big support to a substandard coach and reward him with one one of the biggest contracts in the game for failing at his job.
Arteta apologists may twist it any way they want to make themselves feel better but the truth is the truth and is staring everyone in the face.
One may call a stone and believe it is an apple but that doesn’t make it an apple. That is Arteta and his fans and his employers in a nutshell.
There are younger managers who have achieved way more with less resources but three years is enough to show he has what it takes with that extraordinary support he has been given.
He is not cut for it.
Wenger got the support, he spent over £100m in his last season and finished in 6th place ! The reason he got the sack had nothing to do with the league position, but it was down to his unwillingness to work with a DoF.
If Emery was sacked for finishing 5th, then he would’ve been sacked at the end of of his 1st season, not a few months into his 2nd season. A string of bad results, plus an disharmonised changing room led to his sacking.
Which younger manager in England has more than Arteta ?
So after 3 years what does arteta have to show for it? Apart from embarrassing the club with embarrassing results and financial losses for creating so called deadwoods?
Regarding your last paragraph I wasn’t aware football is only played in England. Remember when Rodgers was challenging for the title with an average Liverpool squad? He was a younger manager then. Mourinho when he won UCL with Porto? He was a younger manager then. Ever heard of Nigelsmann?
Age is just a number if the manager has talent. There are younger managers who achieved more with less throughout history because of their capabilities. They didn’t need a railroad of excuses.
IF ARTETA WAS THAT GOOD THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO NEED FOR CONSTANT EXCUSES. HIS WORK WOULD HAVE SPOKEN FOR HIM!!
If I remember correctly, AW did not buy any players in his last season (was it two?) as Ivan Gazidis and his stooges has taken that responsibility away from him – just as UE didn’t buy any players.
👍having to coach players you have had no input into bringing to the Club is obviously limiting.
What else is there to add HH. Jon Fox over to you.
JOE, DONT EXPECT ME TO GET INTO DEBATES WITH HH. I learned my lesson by refraining from doing that almost a year ago. It had proved pointless, so YOU debate with him if you wish. I will not be doing so.
@HH
Wenger got given
£35 million for Mustafi.
£30 million for Xhaka.
£42 million for Ozil.
£35 million for Sanchez.
£50 million for Laca
£60 million for Auba
£16 million for Giroud
£16 million for Cazorla
£17 million for Perez
And smaller ones like Elneny and other..
And the club was willing to back him but he was just stubborn, had convinced himself that he could win the Title again with the cheaper rough diamonds he would unearth around the world. Wenger was very nervous about spending big too. So he had to be pushed to get him spending. He would just dilly and dally, “But but we will only players that we think can improve us.
But we have to respect the FFP rules and regulations.
But buying a lot of players in the same window can cause instability in the squad.
But we have still got RVP, Diaby, Wilshere, Rosicky, Vamaelen, Ramsay, Eduardo etc to come back from injury etc””
I have very much respect for Merci Wenger, and he gave us everything he had to offer. I don’t think he had more to offer and we needed a change. The way we treated Wenger still makes me angry, and I wish him all the best ❤️
I thought Emery would be a perfect choice for us, but he did a mistake not to sort things out. The not so constructive atmosphere around our dressing room returned like a boomerang and finished his tenure after 1,5 years.
We had a string of bad results in 2019 and went from bad to worse. In addition did we have a very negative atmosphere in our stadium and around our club. From my point of view there was no chance for him to continue when he got sacked in November 2019.
Arteta has sort things out, seems like he tried a different approach first, but realised that a deep cleaning was necessary, which I support. State of our club in May 2021 is totally different compared to May 2018 and November 2019. From my point of view we have build a foundation for further development. This is probably the most important job done so far by Arteta. I believe it has been crucial for our club, which also includes offloading of certain players to clean the air.
Kroenke has accepted a financial loss because it have an upside. There have been done lots of mistakes in the past, but I believe we will have less mistakes in the future.
Didrik, Excellent realism. Beautifully summed up!
DP, Emery was not “a mistake to not sort things out”, but he was not supported by the Board in discipline of players eg Ozil. Emery dropped Ozil for poor performances, then forced to reinstate him to the starting 11 by the Board, undermining his authority.
Again true Sue P. It took Wegner, what the whole of three years to win the double.
Yes, but when Wenger arrived we had won the league in 1989 and 1991 (only lost one game). We had a string of good results during George Grahams tenure. David Dein was vice-chairman of Arsenal between 1983, and 2007. When Dein was in our vice-chairman we won the league five times and he was instrumental in our successful years. His very close relationship with Wenger and our players is well documented. When Dein had to leave in 2007 our key players strongly supported him, and went against Kroenke’s decision.
DP 👍
The only person I know on this site that consistently blows his own trumpet as if he was one of the three wise men is you, Jon. Most of us talk about the team and club…..you just criticize other people on the threads. Everybody here has just as valid points as you or me or the Admin. Focus on Arsenal, the team, management and owners, not Just Arsenal contributors. Otherwise you’ll be the one Britney Spears is referring to.
Do not know the Britney Spears song you refer to, so that was a wasted comment .
Opinions change as frequently as the wind, and often by which way it blows.
In my humble opinion, it is up to the club and the caretakers (owners) to set standards for the club, and articulate their ambitions and the direction they lead the club and fans.
Unfortunately, too often we have been mislead by the Kronkes and Gazidis when he was in charge. From the “Compete with top clubs” during the move to the Emirates, to the ever famous “if there are better players we will get them” speeches on repeat.
I only speak for myself, and I am highly critical of the mismanagement of the club and it’s resources.
The money has been available, but the decision making has been atrocious. Several years ago Bellerin could have drawn 35-45 million in transfer fees, (at his height before injury) now we’re lucky to get a few million.
18 million for average Sokratis with little to no sell-on value, the Mustafi charade, Lucas Perez, Danny Welbeck, the list is maddening.
Remember Alexis Sanchez? how many millions did the club turn away only to swap him with a dead fish in Mkhi?
At least a decade of mismanagement, fatherly protectiveness of average players, and stubborn refusal to upgrade on mediocre players.
How many years were Arsenal a couple players short of having a remarkable team? Lacking a real DM since Silva, no threatening striker since RVP, never replacing Carzola in midfield.
Upper management has been a disaster; Gazidis, Raul, now a rookie in Edu who has made things worse in my opinion.
How much more difficult is the product on the field when the management is such a continuous dumpster fire?
10 years at least fans have been patient, understanding, and accepting mostly of the situation. Frustrations emerge because we haven’t shown ambition for years.
Content with CL and bowing out in round of 16, no title challenge except for the Leicester year; even then we didn’t capitalize on that opportunity.
Point being, fans should not lower their standards, the club and owners should maintain them. Arsenal is a storied and prestigious club in England, like it or not standards and expectations follow.
If the owners can’t embrace that, or it seems too much, then sell and jog on. Disgusting to think fans should lower their standards to accommodate and owner who “Isn’t involved to win titles.”
Why should Arsenal fans settle for less, when our owner fawns over the Rams? Lavishing them with a 6 billion dollar stadium and investment far above Arsenal?
Why does it fall to Arsenal to settle for less, to bear the brunt of the process, to have endless patience while watching the Rams handed a golden chalice from Kronke?
Stadium is 5 billion, not 6 billion, and 1.6 Billion is from Kronke’s own money.
Also, the Rams stadium complex is nearly 4 times the size of Disneyland, interesting don’t you think?
Aaron Donald on the Rams signed a new contract; 3 years for 95 million dollars. Matthew Stafford, 4 years for 160 million (more than Arsenal’s transfer budget last Summer)Jalen Ramsey 5 years 100 million.
Google the salaries and the guaranteed money. Yet, Arsenal should be patient and content with what the Kronke’s are delivering our club?
There is good reason for many to be upset and dissatisfied with the state of Arsenal.
Durand out all this in an article as you are spot on with everything you say. I said yesterday about the rams getting everything they want while we don’t as I read about the new 95m contract upgrade. It’s so frustrating
Palmer17
Thank you, I am considering doing exactly that. I am finishing administering exams currently, and hopefully at its conclusion I will have time to do a bit of research before bloviating on this topic.
I look forward to reading it.
Sometimes it’s hard not to be negative about what’s going on. We are constantly fed and told we can’t afford this and that and then bang new 5 billion stadium for the rams. Like I get we have changed a lot of players out but at the end of this season if we don’t finish 4th or win EL I will be Arteta out.
Also Durand the redevelopment and sale of the land (4 times the area of Disneyland) associated with the Rams complex, is where the money is to pay for Jalen Ramsey and a lot more.
Good article Jon – well worth reading and digesting.
I must be out on my own though, because I never visit other club’s sites – why would I waste my time?
It’s long been my belief that there is only one club that deserves 100% of my time and that is The Arsenal.
As Jon says, living through good and bad times, has been a part of that experience and enables one to evaluate what is actually “toxicity”.
My only question to Jon is this and I hope he takes it at face value :
Why have you gone to three Palace games, but, as you acknowledged recently, haven’t seen a Arsenal game since those you watched with my season ticket?
I find that incredibly puzzling, as I would only go to a game that involved my club, no matter what the circumstances.
@Ken, perhaps JF have been looking for the emergency exit from our club, or just som joy when watching football 🤣🤣
Good point Didrik, I think many of us have found that some performances this season have been deeply depressing – while others have left them ecstatic!!!
I hope and believe that you and many others will have more joy next season. I have a good feeling 😉
@Ken
***I must be out on my own though, because I never visit other club’s sites – why would I waste my time?
It’s long been my belief that there is only one club that deserves 100% of my time and that is The Arsenal.***
I hope you were just being rhetorical when you wrote that. But if not then..
Isn’t that a bit myopic and unhealthy?.. You can’t keep yourself 100% in an Arsenal Cocoon.. Gotta diversify your knowledge. 😊
Can’t just watch the BBC or Channel 4 as your only news channel. Gotta mix it up and find out what others (non Arsenal fans) are saying..
Isn’t this the same thing that this particular article is trying to expose in the first place? Fellow gooners that spend 100% of their time in the Arsenal bubble are the ones that make statements such as “Our fans are the most toxic”.
How can one come to a conclusion about any given matter when they only have one side of the story?
Isn’t it?
Goonster, every time I write something, I tell what I believe is the truth.
Sometimes I get my my recollections wrong, but, in those incidents, it wouldn’t be intentional.
Remember, we were talking about websites such as JA, at least that’s what I was doing.
Of course I watch football at every opportunity, as my wife will testify too!!!
How could I give my opinion on players etc if I didn’t?
But I have no interest whatsoever in what any other fan from any other club thinks about my club – why should I?
There’s enough “toxicity” between our own fans, I don’t want anymore thanks!!!
It is, sometimes, hard to believe that everyone who contributes to JA (for instance) are all Arsenal fans / supporters wouldn’t you agree?
Ken two separate points. First I think you are tre norm in not going on other sites and I AM THE RELATIVE EXCEPTION . THOUGH I DO THINK A NUMBER DO GO ON OTHER SITES NOW AND AGAIN BUT NOT REGULARLY.
ADMIN COMMENT let’s stop these arguments on here please.
Ignore each other…
Ad PAT. KEN IS A FINE HUMAN BEING , though he does not think the same of me. Our ongoing problem is we come from two differing life philosophies and neither will change , nor should we, as IMO, people should stand up resolutely for what they hold dear and fundamentally believe
I cannot and will not underatke to ignore Kens posts, as I like and cherish a great many things he stands for, over and above AFC. And a deal on AFC too. Though plainly we also disagree on a lot about our club. C’est la vie and always will be !
THAT IS MY POSITION
It’s a myth to say that we are the most toxic fans.. It seems like the people that say this live in their own little bubbles.. Just go onto other Clubs fans Forums and have a scroll through their comments.
May be if one is to say that our fans are the biggest trolls on Twitter then I can agree on that.. But in general we are no more toxic than any other so called Top 6 club..
What I have noticed is that one is deemed Toxic if they disagree with each other.. It’s mostly to do with favourite Players or managers. We all have our favourites players and managers that we will defend, make excuses for, but the moment the other person dares to criticise our favourites we get all sensitive / emotional and deem them toxic etc..
To sum it up, Someone will be deemed / labelled Toxic if they have a differing view point to the other person.
If I don’t agree with someone’s criticism/ negativity of my favourite manager / Player then I will label them disrespectful and toxic. But then if I myself start criticising another person’s favourites player / manager then they will deem me as Toxic etc..
If you don’t agree with my opinion / view point then you are a toxic person..
It’s all childish and egotistical posturing, it part of our human nature..
Solid post, well done.
I agree with you completely that one person’s opinion/standard/belief could be viewed as toxic by another.
Hopefully we can agree to disagree and be civil towards one another, and remember first and foremost we are all Arsenal fans.
GOONSTER AND DURAND, What I leftouit of my article was the thought that most people judged as toxic and those that judge then are almost entirely MALE!
I FIND THAT A SIGNIFICANT THOUGHT AND I BLAME THE EXCESS OF TESTOSTERONE THAT SO MANY MALES SUFFER FROM, FOR OUR GENERALLY FAR TOO MUCH AGGRESSION.
JF, how will you describe the atmosphere surrounding Arsenal last 1,5 years of Wenge’s tenure? And what about the last four months of Emery’s tenure until November 2019? From my point of view it wasn’t a constructive atmosphere and not a good place to be…
I still believe that our main problem wasn’t Wenger nor Emery, but our club owner. From taking fully control in 2018 they have changed their approach, but I’m still not convinced about them.
Didrik, To answer your interesting question as fully as it deserves would take a post too long to be possible on here. It is a fair question however. I put a great deal of all MALE aggression globally, about all sorts of matters, of which AFC is just a tiny, tiny part, down to an EXCESS of that harmful hormone , testosterone.
It is what causes wars and fights. And almost all of those have been historically, as still today, started and fought almost exclusively by MALES! Sigh!
This is far too wide and deep a subject to be properly aired on a football site , sadly!
Many thanks JF, another interesting and thought-provoking answer which I appreciate 👍
I’m a fan of free speech and the Fox. You have obviously turned the other cheek and written a very good article 👏
Good article JF. Are our fans toxic ? Yep, and have been for years. Before social media we would discuss/moan in the pubs or on the way to the game. Nowadays people take to social media to vent their frustrations. One only has to see the Toby’s on that AFTV to realise how self entitled some of our ‘fans’ have become. No team has a divine right to win trophies. Man Utd went 20 odd years without winning the League, and the Mickeys went 30 years. They are the 2 biggest clubs in England.
Our fans spit their dummies out if we don’t finish in the top 4 🙄. Like a lot of old skool mates, I’d rather win the FA Cup or the League Cup than finish 3rd or 4th, at least then the club has actually won some silverware. Thanks to UEFA, these 2 trophies are now ranked lower than the fabled top 4 ‘trophy’ according to many of the ’96ers 😡.
While I would love to see us challenging every year for the League Title, I realise that it will take time and effort for us to reach that goal. The Arsenal have always been run as it’s now being run by Silent Stan, as in money spent has been money earned. It’s about time the newer fan realised this, and stopped screaming for the yank to dip into his own pocket.
Add my compliments the the chef. Good read.
At this point in time we are probably more toxic than most fans in PL save ManU. But likely no more toxic than Liverpool fans were when we were going through our purple patch.
Fans of big clubs have big expectations and big strops when those expectations aren’t met.
Voyageur , well summed up!
Wholeheartedly concur with Voyageur
It was JF, your best article that I have read in over 2 and a half years of following JA
THANK YOU SO MUCH, SueP.
Arsenal fans are no more toxic than those of other clubs with high expectations. After eighteen years there should be some progress made towards winning the EPL. Nothing yet. But toxic or not we are a patient lot. As paying customers, either at games or through cable networks we have a right to expect good football at the very least. Sometimes I envy the fans of a club such as Burnley. They are mostly locals, are rewarded periodically with spells in the Premier League where they can see the best players in their cozy compact ground, celebrate a hard fought 0-0 result against a top team and make cult heroes from their motely band of players assembled on a shoe string budget. When relegated they return to the Championship where they can once again take on their opponents on an equal footing dreaming again of another promotion run. Now that’s the stuff of come what come may loyalty. Arsenal however are in a different league. A club which has won three doubles, been through an unbeaten season and pretends to at least be the top clubs in London. When things have gotten as sloppy as they have over the past six years then everyone responsible should be held to account. There is little toxicity in the fanbase, rather it’s upstairs.
Very nice read Jon. You are absolutely correct about Tottenham. There are not up to a hundred Tottenham fans here in Nigeria. I can stake 50 million naira on that.
It may also interest you to know that we never really saw Tottenham as rivals until recently. To us there is more rivalry between us and United and Chelsea
The toxic tag came about when our 12th man became an opponent during matches a ways back. The fans whom dislike MA are behind the players, the team, they’ve all been great in the season gone.
It is not toxic to want everyone from the owners, Board, manager, players and supporters to professionally work fof the success of Arsenal FC.
It is not toxic to want players (regardless of their ability) to represent Arsenal FC to the best of their ability, to earn their money and play for the Club, the shirt and badge and their personal professionsl pride.
If the Club and the players leave everything on the pitch in every game, there is no reason for complaint, even though the results may be disappointing.