More official stats – this time from the PGMOL by Ken 1945
Howard Webb has been discussing some changes he wants VAR officials to do with regards to “soft penalties” and on field referees take stronger action when “imaginary cards” are being held up by players.
1. The latter would see that, any player brandishing a card to try and influence the referee, should be shown the yellow card themselves.
An EXCELLENT recommendation in my opinion.
2. He is also recommending that the var officials intervene, when they think a “soft penalty” has been given, even if the decision is not seen as “clear and obvious”, by asking the on field referee to go to the screen and review their decision even if an error is not “clear and obvious”. Another EXCELLENT idea, but one wonders why this wasn’t the case when VAR was introduced? I agree it is still subjective, but, at least, it will see four officials giving their opinions, rather than one.
Nevertheless, I see it as a step in the right direction and I also wonder if it has anything to do with the following?
1. Dissent amongst players regarding refereeing decisions, in the same period this season versus last, has more than doubled, from 165 to 347.
2. Dissent amongst managers and staff has grown even more quickly, with numbers quadrupling from 35 to 126.
These figures are startling to say the least and one would hope they have shocked the PGMOL into some kind of action to improve their use of VAR.
I can think of quite a few more, but are we in agreement that SOMETHING has to happen before those figures regarding dissent grow even bigger?
ken1945
Figures and information from the Guardian dated 22-11-23.
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The gaffer out burst is bearing fruits, after all something has to give.
Then one wonders why the hostilities towards officials have increased, my experience taught me when the laws are unjust they will be broken without second thoughts.
So you cannot question the referees during and after the match anymore, more powers to the referees.
Not sure what you mean Phillip, how do the examples given mean that you cannot question the referee?
Players should not be “questioning” referees during a game anyway.
Ref is in charge, players should accept the decisions even if they disagree.
Other sports get this right. Only football allows players to behave like spoiled brats. Needs to stop.
This is an important key point. Unfortunately, football hasn’t been able to address this issue effectively. Players brandishing fake yellow cards is part of football’s historical poor culture which should have been addressed a long time ago.
Yet referees have the power to stop players approaching them in groups, swearing at them and brandishing supposed cards – the problem is they don’t use said power.
That’s what Howard Webb is trying to get them to do I would suggest?
Of course, var will be recording it and can be used if players appeal their yellow or red cards… it’s simple really, why don’t they use the power they’ve got to control players?
I also agree with Webb’s ideas. Hopefully they will be implemented soon
Ken, any word on the introduction of a stop clock which works effectively in Rugby Union and League?The clock would be stopped automatically for Injuries, VAR checks,substitutions and any Managerial interventions.Such a simple move would I am sure he welcomed by players and fans and match officials who have enough on their plate without timekeeping.
Not that I can find Grandad, but what a SIMPLE and EFFECTIVE way to help the referee – didn’t they have this at the world cup, but was rejected by the PL / PGMOL?
Was there a basis under which the time wasting measures from the world cup were rejected?
Yes that would be a real good thing to add. And an obvious one.
I get the idea that football officials really want everything to be as “analogue” as possible. Have to wonder why. Easier to hide bad decisions maybe?
Rejected because it takes away a tool to influence games via extended or retracted added time. Time and time again we see this and time and time again people defend it or turn a blind eye.
But the current rules also can influence games!!
That’s why Grandads idea of an INDEPENDANT time keeper makes so much sense.
I think referees should go more to the on field screens to review incidents themselves instead of letting the VAR officials have the power to make decisions.
Faceless and nameless VAR officials will always be less responsible and accountable.
Yep. Another obvious thing to do.
Other sports the ref asks the officials to show the angles he wants to see.
And the tech officials can mention things to the ref as well.
I see the rugby guys brought in a new rule that the review can only go back up to 2 “phases” of play.
(NZ try in the wc final should have stood because the disallowed knock-on was 4 phases back. So they do get some things wrong).
Agree.
The idea, that “ref’s” sitting far away from the action should be able to decide whether a penalty is soft and thus overrule the actual ref, is a terrible one. It will never improve fairness.
I am in favour of replay screens but IMPLACABLY OPPOSED to having extra and invisible, unheard, VAR refs operating it and passing on their OPINION to the match ref, who OUGHT himself to be “God” when decisions are made.
So I agree with you that we keep replay screens by pitchside and someone to rewind the pictures only.
But NO VAR REFS AT ALL.
NONE!!!
Match refs ONLY should always and exclusively decide ALL decisions, with HIS word to be final.
It shouldn’t be only up to the VAR officials to decide when to ask the on field referee to go to the screen and review an incident. I would like to see teams have an option, once per game or once per half, to request the on field referee to go to the screen and review all the VAR evidence on an incident. Let managers decide for themselves whether to evoke this appeal option when they feel there is an erroneous decision against them
Good idea.
It could also be made compulsory for the ref. to review any incident, which may or may not be either a penalty or a red card.
I think any player waving imaginary cards should always be carded themselves, but is there any need for VAR to get involved in this decision? Also, I’m not sure about the ‘stop clock’ as it depends what it stops for, as if it includes throw ins and/or in play stoppages Iike keepers taking time to kick the ball from hand, a game could last for more than 2 hours. If ever it goes like American football with stops every 10 minutes for ads, then heaven forbid, but some idiot will come up with this idea if there’s shed loads of revenue involved.
A good question. I think they do it via var because they are afraid of refs being intimidated by crowds.
That was the reason they gave for the var review not appearing on screen like in other sports.
I think it’s a complete nonsense reason tbf. Just another way of them keeping the decision process secret. hmmm gotta wonder why would they want to do that?
Ken, I welcome the improvements with open arms, but is there any word on the five or seven person squad VAR referees system and Hawkeye cameras being install around the ground
None on either of your points Gunsmoke – mores the pity!!
Speaking as a retired youth referee and a a Gooner, I think these are all good ideas. I am as disappointed as anyone that VAR has not improved the game more. I had high hopes.
It is important to consider what you mean by improve. The number of obvious errors appear to have declined even if some high profile ones are hotly debated.
It is highly unlikely that all errors will be eliminated but they can reduced even further with refinements to the technology, improved training and professionalism of referees etc.
One of the issues now is that high profile errors or contentious decisions are discussed and dissected in greater detail than ever before.
Also, for a number of teams, particularly at either end of the table, the margins can be very slim for an important outcome in such a low scoring sport. This probably contributes to a lot of the anger and angst that follows a disappointing result which is perceived as being due an error by a referee.
“Reduced”? But at WHAT cost to fan enjoyment ? THAT seems never to be considered at all, nor even recognised as BEING OF ANY IMPORTANCE, by VAR wanting fanatics.
I think PRIMARAILY of those who are footballs life blood and about their enjoyment. WE FANS!!
And VAR ruins OUR emjoyment and the incredible adrenalin rush of being able to celebrate a goal, without trepidation that it will be removed for an offside toenail or a second entirely subjective call by a VAR operator,thus overriding the God like status ALL match refs MUST have .
It ought never to have come in at all, UNTIL it could be automated entirely with technology and not an additional human UNDERMINING the match ref, of watching millions.
No wonder ref abuse is rocketing and the fools who wanted VAR have brought it on all our refs from Prem, right down to park football.
Auto tech is almost ready now and we SHOULD HAVE WAITED, INSTEAD OF BLUNDERING INTO VAR AS CURRENTLY MISRUN!
It is essential that fans enjoy the sport of course. However, adrenaline rush you have mentioned should not be at the cost of more errors when these can be reduced.
Poor behaviour should not be blamed on VAR. Football has a culture of poor behaviour which needs to be addressed in its own right.
The use of VAR has not been without problems but that does mean it should not have been brought in. It is appropriate to understand the problems, learn from them and make necessary changes to improve the sport and ensure its fairness.
Your post represents many people.
But I warrent that if someone held a countrywide fan poll of those who all attend games regularly, MOST WOULD AGREE WITH MY VIEW AND NOT YOURS.
To get an accurate result to that poll, you need to ask each and every single fan individually and not rely on only those who choose to speak in radio phone ins or on fan sites.
They do not represent EVERYBODY!
FANS ARE FAR AND AWAY the most important thing in football. Players can be replaced, managera and ownersstoo but when fans stop watching in enough numbers, football is dead. Ever considered that?
Oh look, yet another mid season adjustment to try and convince people that we should keep VAR. If the whole system actually worked, there wouldn’t need to be all of these constant changes.
Jen It seems you and I are among a tiny minority of PERCEPTIVE and CLEAR SIGHTED fans who have been, certainly in MY case at least , implacably against VAR from its very outset.
I wrote back then and have written constantly ever since that VARs worst fault is that by its very existence , it massively undermines the game ref and therefore players coaches, fans lose any remaining respect they ever had for the onfield ref.
When someones faults are routinely highlighted in every PREM GAME, OFTEN SEVERAL TIMES, it is certain- at least to clear sighted fans like you and me – that massive disrespect for the actual game ref would follow, as certain as night follows day.
I saw this TRUTH from the very outset and have been metaphorically banging my head against a brick wall , trying to convince the many NON visionary fans who WANT VAR to stay, of its many faults.
When you put another but an invisible ref above the match ref it was always BOUND TO HAPPEN JUST AS IT HAS DONE.
There are none so blind as those who wilfully refuse to see what is in front of everyones eyes and brain, if only SOME MORE OF OUR FANS WOULD ACTUALLY CHOOSE TO USE THEIR BRAIN!!
“Mistakes ROUTINELY highlighted” Jon?!?!
Therein lies the problem – WHY are they ROUTINELY making mistakes?!?!
THAT’S where the DISRESPECT occurs, especially when var is there to assist them and they STILL can’t get it right as individuals or as a group!!
So you don’t think that we should try and improve something once it’s been introduced then Jen?
I guess we’ll all be driving along the motorway at 5mph with someone in front waving a flag?
Jon, has it occurred to you that var has ACTUALLY exposed the mistakes that referees were making?
Why is it that every other sport has taken on board some kind of var that officials have welcomed and worked alongside, with no problems whatsoever?
But which sports are you comparing it to? Most other sports I know that use some for of VAR or similar technology are essentially turn or play-based games with quick turnovers that make intervention much simpler than football which is far more fluid.
Rugby, cricket, American football, tennis you name it and some form of var is being used… and used without any problems, because the officials follow a set of rules, do NOT interpret the force of a push and decide a colleague needs a helping hand as per Mike Dean!!
As I mentioned all of those are turn/play-based sports. They can stop and start with relatively fewer checks to make. In tennis for example, as far as I’m aware only Hawkeye is used, and solely to decide whether the ball is in or out, which is vastly simpler than the rules in football. On the other hand, VAR can’t definitively tell us whether the ball was in or out for the goal in the Newcastle game.
Correct on your last point and the question should be asked why not?
Why hasn’t the richest league in the world installed hawkeye?
Why haven’t the PGMOL insisted on it?
As for var, probably the most competitive and contact sport in the UK, is rugby and they use it successfully – have never seen a var decision disputed… because the officials know how to use it.
I note with interest you don’t dispute my points regarding referees interpreting and giving their own opinions – unlike rugby!!
Of course one should look at improving something if it hasn’t been working, but when all of these “improvements” have almost no effect over a long period of time, then you have to consider removing it once and for all.
And this is the problem. Removing VAR doesn’t even seem to be in the conversation. Those in charge are not looking at this objectively, and have tunnel vision, and all they can think of is amend, amend, amend!
VAR is having a negative effect on the game, and people seem more obsessed with getting it VAR work, over the good of the game.
Perfect example of this is decades of green policies that have done nothing but self harm the citizens that are supposedly benefiting from it. Shutting down all of your major energy sources was only ever going to destroy peoples way of life and the ability to actually live, and it’s going the same way with VAR. Fours years of ruining the game, it’s getting worse every season, and they won’t be happy until football is destroyed. Imagine it in another 4 years, 30 mins stoppage time for every game?
If there were 30 minutes of added stoppage time, due to the fact that there actually WAS 30 minutes of the game stopped, what is the problem with that?
The game of football is meant to be for 90 minutes and that’s what the fans are paying for, along with the right decisions being made and VAR (if used correctly) helps ensure both of those examples happen.
In one post your complaining about changes being made and then say that, of course, changes should be made to improve the game – so which is it?
I clearly explained myself. You don’t just drop something at the first hurdle. You won’t learn to play the guitar in one or two lessons. They’ll be ups and downs for while until you perfect it, but if you still can’t play after a number of years of practice, then it’s time to let it go.
It’s been many years of VAR and it’s only getting worse. In fact, it’s become so farcical that this season we saw the worst decision in the entire history of football. Liverpool score a perfectly legal goal. The VAR team decide it is a legal goal, and then they don’t give the goal!!! You honestly couldn’t make it up!!!
But I thought I had made myself clear!!!
It’s not var that’s making the mistakes is it?
VAR clearly showed that the Liverpool goal was onside… it was the officials who messed it up.
So your answer to their cock up, is to get rid of var that proved the linesman was INCORRECT in signalling the goal was offside?!?!
Please explain your thinking Jen.
Haha, we keep hearing this excuse over and over – it’s not VAR’s fault, it’s the officials using it?
Do you not understand that humans are fallible? 4/5 years of them using VAR proves it! And like I said, the decisions are getting worse.
Scrap VAR and we’ll still be complaining about officials, but at least there will be way less controversy, and football will be more enjoyable again. E.g. one cannot even enjoy a goal anymore, knowing VAR will be searching for any tiny infraction and often getting it completely wrong, as we saw at Newcastle.
It’s not too late though. Golden Goal was a terrible addition that lasted a while before they finally realised how it was ruining the game, and then ditched it. Fingers crossed they will come to their senses over VAR as well.
Of course humans are fallible – that’s why your asking for a piece of machinery that proved an official got his decision wrong (the linesman) only for another group of officials to then compounded the initial mistake, by making yet another mistake.
At no time was VAR wrong, as was proven by the tape recordings and the media, but it was proven that a number of humans did get it wrong.
So, even with the aid of simple technology, humans STILL got it wrong and your solution?
Throw out the one thing that got it right!! HaHa, logic at it’s highest level.. I don’t think!!
Who’s actually making the var decisions and getting them wrong? Humans or VAR?
Who’s looking for any discrepancies leading up to the goal? Humans or VAR?
Who’s fault was the liverpool goal being wrongly ruled out (your example of var being at fault)? Humans or VAR?
Who’s fault is it that it’s taking so long to make decisions? Humans or VAR?
Who’s idea was it to introduce the “Golden Goal?” HUMANS or VAR?
As Jon Fox said, “CONSISTENT mistakes by referees” are ruining the game – look at the absurd offside rules, or the new handball rules, who introduced these? Humans or VAR?
It’s these absurd rules, that are having to be checked, using VAR, by Humans, that are ruining the game.
I note that you haven’t disagreed with the FACT that football is played over 90 minutes and all incidents that stop that happening, should be added on.
I’m sure our late goals against United and Bournemouth, for example) made you see that fact?
Fingers crossed that the PL etc will expand VAR, train the officials thoroughly in it’s usage,
stop introducing illogical rules and allow an OFFICIAL timekeeper to take over that role and let referees referee the game itself.
Humans ARE VAR. Until you stop trying to make out they are not related and are infact ONE AND THE SAME ENTITY AND THE SAME PROBLEM (AS ALLHUMANS WILL ALWAYS MAKE MISTAKES) you will keep getting ref abuse.
The ONLY wise solution was to wait UNTIL VAR could be without human hands altogether and fully automated and sent DIRECTLY, and very quickly, by automation, to the ref – just like goal line technology which works instantly and reliably – then these constsnt problems, caused directly by stupid human mistakes, which will HAPPEN forever, while humans are alive on Earth,will continue for ever and ever.
Automation works, humans make mistakes! REALITY!
Spot on Jon. Ive been making that exact point to him, and he just doesn’t get it.
Ken, I’m sorry but you’ve completely lost the plot now.
Who opporates VAR?…Humans!! VAR does not exist without human intervention, yet by your bizarre logic you keep seperating the two, even though they coexist.
Of course it exists, you can buy the system online – how you use it, is another thing and proper training will help get the best out of it.
Next you’ll be telling me cars don’t exist, but they do, as I’ve just bought one – trouble is, I’ve got to be trained to use it as it’s all electric, but it’s there waiting to be activated.
Let’s hope I don’t make a mistake and crash it though, otherwise I’ll start a petition to ban all cars… despite my incompetence in not being able to use it properly.
A bad workman and all that 😂
Bogus and false car analogy but as ever KEN, artfully and deceitfully used by you to give a false picture.
JEN, Logical and human observing BLISS!
Sadly Jen, you and I SEEM to be the only two Gooners on JA with sense and vision.
KEN KEEPS SPOUTING ON AS IF VAR itself and the humans who operate it ARE TWO SEPARATE THINGS . We know they are not; they are all the same and single problem.
Many of these short sighted non visionry fools who cling to the foolish idea that amending VAR, while still having humans operate it, will eventually get it right.
How ironic then that many of those same fans would have willingly got rid of Arteta when his first and second seasons results were less than acceptable to them .
They would gladly have got rid of a top class manager ; BUT they would rather keep for years and years, a ridiculous and constantly faulty VAR, which was always BOUND to be faulty, while fallible humans operate and misinterpret it .
They wont accept that plain truth. Short sighted fools that they are!! SIGH.
Ken you are wasting your time in trying to convince me you are right and I am wrong.
I will never , repeat NEVER, accept VAR until and unless it is automated with NO human direct involvement.
It is the fact that a SECOND ref undermines the game ref by querying his decisions before countless watching millions that leads DIRECTLY to ref abuse at all levels from grassroots up to PREM. You will no doubt now repeat what I HAVE ALREADY LONG AGREED, THAT REF BAITING WAS GOING ON LONG BEFORE VAR. I KNOW THAT IS TRUE AND HAVE SAID SO MYSELF COUNTLESS TIMES.
But what good comes of keeping a disastrous VAR system that ruins game enjoyment for millions and makes ref baiting EVER WORSE STILL!!
Of course ref baiting and open abuse is also a society problem, but not undermining refs so publicly MUST be the first step in eradicating loutish and unallowable behaviour towards refs. The way things going, before long there will be NO refs willing to put up with the constant aggro and loutishmess.
Quite rightly too.
You and your short sighted ilk who STILL think VAR is necessary, have been warned that refs are leaving the game in droves.
WHERE WILL YOU FOOLISH VAR LOVERS BE THEN!!
KEN. the more pereceptive ones among us KNOW that that one PRIME reason (among others too) WHY dissent has increased so markedly recently is BECAUSE OF THE EXISTENCE OF VAR.
I realise you will never my accept my opinion and Ange Postecoglu’s too, that VAR by its very nature, MASSIVELY UNDERMINES REFS and whenthat happens, more disrespect from players, managers fans will and HAS increased and massively so.
Either you accept that plain and obvious truth OR, as in your case, you dont.
VAR causes more problems than it solves, as Postecoglu says too.
The more perspective amongst us realize it’s not var that’s causing the problems, it’s the way the officials USE it in a CONSISTENT WAY,by following the rules (ie hands on back to gain an advantage constitutes a foul – not deciding how much force was used which is a personal view of course.
If var was responsible Jon, why are the PGMOL sending out letters of apology to clubs for decisions made by the referees?
I haven’t seen one incident where it was accepted that var made a mistake, rather than the official.
My take on the increase in complaints is that var is actually SHOWING the mistakes and THAT is leading to the frustration felt by clubs, managers, players and the fans.
If the PGMOL got their own house in order and delivered a CONSISTENT level of refereeing then everyone would understand them… especially if they came out and explained said decisions and then followed it game after game.
KEN, ARE YOU STUPID ? VAR IS a HUMAN problem. They are NOT two separate things, as you ridiculously try to make out. All humans make mistakes!
THE SENSIBLE THING TO HAVE DONE WAS TO ACCPR THAT REFS MAKE MISTAKES , THOUGH HONESTLY, AND JUST MAKE FANS , PLAYERS, MANAGERS, ACCEPT THAT TOO.
Trying for perfection when humans are involved is idiotic, short sighted and is the solution for fools only !
Jon, I will NOT go down to your level – suffice it to say, I will answer you with the dignity that I always thought you had.
VAR is an invention of man / woman.
It has no brain, heart, soul, thinking capabilities and cannot make decisions
It is, in fact, simply a machine.
Humans, on the other hand, have brains, heart, soul, thinking capabilities and make decisions.
So they are, OBVIOUSLY, two separate entities, one controls the other and the other reacts to said control…these roles cannot be reversed.
Let me put it another way, one that you might be able to grasp, as it’s even simplier to understand.
Would VAR ever be able to tell, disagree, overrule, or even help out another VAR machine that’s having a bad day?
No, I didn’t think so, unless of course you disagree with my examples of how the two are completely separate things… from reading your comments above, I sadly think that you will not see any differences whatsoever.
Jon, unlike some, your arrogant, bullying and stupid words have NO effect on me whatsoever – if you cannot debate in a civil and mature way, don’t bother, as there are many JA people who can do just that, even if they have differing opinions to me – over and out.
So you accept then that tthe machine by itself is inert and meaningless. Of course that is so.
So together with operatiing humans, it is ONE MEANINGFUL THING, NOT TWO. It would only be two separate things if it had a life of its own without humans involved.
It does not though, as you admit, so that is WHY it is only one thing- humans with VA- not two things.
I’m so in favour of the principle of VAR as it’s supposed to weed out the much used – clear and obvious errors – Sadly, we are in a position where clear and obvious mean different things to different people and in the end it becomes a forensic operation to determine if an eye lash is in an offside position
Personally, I think if the VAR peeps can’t work out within 1 minute to 99 seconds if an infringement has occurred then tough luck. Sound a hooter and get on with the game. I expect that the ref and his VAR counterparts could then be accused of deliberately taking too long. And on it goes…..
Jon, I could name MANY professionals, including Howard Webb, who disagree with you and your antiquated view on var, but I prefer to put my OWN point of view and not rely on anyone for back up.
See below :
At 9.08 Jon.
So the response to problems with VAR is…. more VAR?
Why not just get rid of on-pitch referees completely then?
As for waving cards, it might not be optimal behaviour, but who is it really hurting? The referee can just ignore it, can’t they? It’s not threatening or insulting, so it seems a pretty arbitrary issue.
There is not a problem with VAR, the problem is how it’s being used by people who can’t seem to be capable of using the system in a consistent way – they obviously need help, training and guidance… that’s what Webb seems to be saying and doing.
There are multiple problems with VAR, for example in the Newcastle match two of the three checks were “inconclusive” (whether the ball was out of play, and whether Gordon was offside), and with the current rules referees and assistants don’t, or don’t want to, make decisions as it’s much simpler to let play go on and then let VAR sort it out than to actually make a decision and open themselves up to criticism if they get it wrong.
There are clearly still issues both with the technology and how VAR is used.
However, the fact that referees still give contentious decisions is not sufficient reason to get rid of VAR.
There are clearly aspects that need improving. Most of these are not insurmountable but will require careful thought, planning and implementation.
There are a number of fans and pundits who seem to believe we should get rid of VAR which will simply increase the number of errors made by referees.
It is not a credible argument to suggest that we should get rid of VAR because players are disagreeing with decisions especially when those decisions are more likely to be correct.
Footballers, Football fans, pundits etc. have undermined referees for years. It is a rather poor argument to suggest that VAR has undermined referees. The lack of respect and poor behaviour towards referees is to do with football’s culture which really needs improvement.
I 100% agree with you. But I feel that both the technology and the processes to implement it are clearly lacking.
No, var is NOT the problem, it’s the officials using the system that are the problem.
VAR didn’t decide how much force was used when Joelington placed his hands on Gabriel’s back, the officials did, so I ask you this:
How did they, the officials, determine said force via VAR, or was it, in fact, their own opinions and nothing to do with VAR whatsoever?
Right, but that was one of three checks. The other two, whether the ball was in play or not and whether Gordon was offside, were “inconclusive”, yet the instructions to assistants are to allow play to continue if they are in doubt as VAR can be used to clarify the situation later. Except when it can’t.
That’s why Howard Webb is implementing further guidance isn’t it?
You are still not answering why var is being blamed, when officials are deciding what amount of pressure is deemed necessary to claim a foul, when, in actual fact, two hands being used to gain an advantage, is deemed to be a foul, according to the rules.
I’m not blaming VAR for that decision- it’s a judgement call that could have gone either way. But that’s not the issue with VAR. If the technology is fine, how can they simply say that there is no “conclusive” proof whether the ball has gone out of play or not? The view wasn’t obstructed, they simply didn’t have a camera there.
Exactly, so it’s not var itself, but the way in which the PL have decided to install and implement its usage.
What’s stopping them installing the very top of what’s on offer?
The richest league in the world should be ensuring that their officials have the very best technology to assist them…. and then ensure that they are trained to the level envied by the rest of the world.
VAR is not a threat to referees, it’s an asset…. or it should be.
That’s also why I haven’t argued about the decision to not question the offside, handball or over the line decisions, but the hands on the back should have been given, as var proved that Joelington placed his on the back of Gabriel to gain an advantage – otherwise why did he do it?
And the guidelines and training should be improved.
The example of hands on the back. One game it’s not given but in another in the same week it was a foul.
It would help if they clarify the rules to say that it’s a foul if there is any contact that could impede a player. Make it objective.
It’s not VAR causing that problem, it’s the subjective rules, or the officials taking too much judgement on themselves whether the rules allow for judgement or not.
For example the rules dont say you can ignore something because your mate the ref is having a tough day on the field.
VAR is exposing that kind of problem for what it is. And showing up to us that not enough is being done about it. In any other area of life that guy would be sacked and the cops would be looking for any “lifestyles changes” lol.
And despite all the palaver over VAR (in football, not other sports) it has still reduced the errors by officials as compared with the days when we didn’t have VAR.
And iirc it gets even better results in other countries. It’s just the PL that has a crap way of using it.
ABSOLUTELY Neutral 100% correct.
We’ve got Jen saying that var should be scrapped because the officials got the liverpool goal wrong and YET it was var that proved the goal was onside, while the linesman flagged it was offside!!!
Where on earth is the logic in that thinking?
VAR got it 100% CORRECT while the officials got it 100% WRONG.
I just cannot fathom where these ideas are coming from!!!
Wrong again Ken! I see below you calling me out for my “logic” on the Liverpool goal.
I said, VAR team said it was a legal goal – true
I also said that it was VAR team that decided not to allow the goal – true.
So I am saying factual things that actually happened. Ive never seen officiating that bad.
You can apologise for your misrepresentation.
Quote at 3.28 pm:
“It’s been many years of VAR getting it wrong and it’s only getting worse. In fact it’s becoming so farcical that this season we saw the worst decision in the history of football. The VAR team decide it is a legal goal and then they don’t give the goal.”
No apologies required as you quite plainly said that it’s many years of VAR getting it wrong and it’s only getting worse – no misrepresentation there, if you read your quote in full and don’t cherry pick your own statement.
Ken So you still think VAR is one subject and the humans who misoperate it, is another subject.
HOW WRONG CAN ANYONE BE.
VAR IS (CAPITAL LETTERS FOR EMPHASIS!!) both the human AND the operation TOGETHER .
ONE ENTITY therefore, not two, which is extremely stupid to think.
I see your trying to put words into my mouth again Jon – is that because I quoted YOUR classic slip up of “CONSTANT MISTAKES BY THE REFEREES” as the most complete reason why we need VAR?
VAR is incapable of making a mistake – CORRECT!
Referees are capable of making “CONSTANT MISTAKES ” – CORRECT!
Can VAR learn from referees? NO!
Can referees learn from VAR? YES!
That is the point and trying to make VAR responsible for referees mistakes is ludicrous.
Use the machine properly and in a consistent manner and referees will have earnt the respect you think is a God given right.
That is what Howard Webb is trying to do with these recommendations and I applaud him – long may it continue… as it most certainly will.. progress will never stop, despite the old dinosaurs that want to stop it.
Of course, Jen, if you are now saying that var got it right and the officials got it wrong, then we are in agreement, at least on that FACT.
No, the officials got it right initially (as they have the final say, not VAR), and then obliterated their own decision, to create the greatest mistake we’ve ever witnessed in football. Proving that humans are fallible. Also, imagine if Liverpool miss out on the title by say a point – how costly that error was.
Putting our opinions aside on the technical aspects of VAR, do you honestly think the game is a better spectacle with VAR?
Even if it does get more right than wrong, I would argue, but at what cost? Remember that football is entertainment, and there’s nothing entertaining about VAR other than extra stress, embarrassment, and anger.
Agree that humans are fallible, but var isn’t capable of making mistakes, so why get rid of it?
Why not improve the system and the training?
As for VAR ruining the game – once again your blaming VAR for ruining the spectacle, why?
VAR isn’t forgetting to draw lines, take nearly four minutes to make a decision that millions took just thirty seconds to arrive at, or help an old pal out who’s having a bad day.
I’m not happy that the above examples are, as you put it, spoiling the game, but, when VAR has been used properly and overturned an incorrect decision – such as United’s offside goal in the 84th minute at The Emirates – aren’t you happy that the right decision had been reached, due to the use of VAR?
Instead of, probably, losing three points, we won the three points and the extra time of 12 odd minutes that you previously slammed, all added up to a wonderful and joyous spectacle – how different it would have been without VAR.
That was entertainment at its highest level, a bit like the 3-2 win over Bournemouth.
Jen, the official got it WRONG, when he flagged for offside to begin with.
It was the technology that showed the var officials that that was the wrong call…. and then they messed it up.
So at what stage would you blame var technology?
Coincidence that this interesting article on VAR was on BBC Sport today:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67517181
They are getting pilots and air traffic controllers in to talk to the var people. Seems they also did it last Dec. Fat lot of good that did.
It shows me that they saw what I saw in the Liverpool audio. Lots of people jabbering and no structure to what they are saying.
Again we can look at rugby. There’s an off field team but one guy talks directly to the ref. And the ref can ask them to show what he wants to see before he (the ref) makes his decision. Everyone sees and hears what they say and what they see. In real time.
It works. Why is football doing something else?
Now here is the proof that, if the best that money can buy is installed and the officials working it are the very best, then nigh on perfect decisions can be made.
In the FIFA 2018 World Cup, the use of the, then, state of the art var technology to assist VAR referees and on field referees, when checking and making decisions, the figure of 99.35% was achieved.
Now, if only the PL had agreed to implement the same kind of machinery and training thereof, had also invested in the technology fully and, instead of using their own version of var decisions, followed the lead from the world cup, we wouldn’t be having all these problems.
One old cynic said that 100% would never be achieved because of human intervention – 99.35% has restored my faith in the human race and could it be that the mechanics, when used expertly and in a consistent way, helps us fallible humans achieve nigh on perfection?
By the way, it was also reported that this world cup was the most successful, most viewed and most enjoyed since said tournament was first introduced… funny old game!!
“One old cynic” eh KEN ? It is I you refer too, as we both know,even if some others on JA may not know it, so thanks for the “compliment” which I have noted and will not forget!!
Far from being your laughably incorrect insult, what I am in fact is a visionary and close observer of human kind who knows far better than many about what COULD work and also what will NEVER work, until human inevitable fallibility is excluded entirely from operating.
VAR.
100% automation is the only sensible answer and we OUGHT to have waited until that “only just around the corner now technology” is up and running , instead of BLUNDERING INTO THE LUDICROUS WAY VAR operates with human interpretation.
We cannot avoid having a HUMAN REF AND HUMAN PLAYERS, ALL OF WHOM ALWAYS MAKE MISTAKES, AS ALL HUMANS ALWAYS WILL.
BUT ONLY VISIONARYS, rathe than “cynics” had and have the vision to see that WISE outcome.
If the cap fits and all that – I’m more than happy that the technology used to allow var to record a 99.35% figure is out there and available…. perhaps the 0.65% discrepancy could be explained when we have rogue referees like Mike Dean covering for his mate’s bad day, thus corrupting the system?
As per Neutral’s observation, we know have pilots and traffic control officers training our inept referees!!!
What next?
If you were the visionary you say you are, you would be welcoming the technology that records a success rate of 99.35, if used properly.
Unfortunately, you cannot seem to grasp the reality of progress, but hide behind the guise of human frailty – thank goodness Howard Webb is the REAL visionary.
👏👏👏
Theory question. Should I take 99.35% (of something good) now, instead of a lower %? (and carry on working towards getting 100% in future).
Or should I say no to the 99.35% and wait for 100%?
🤔Tough one. (not)
Utter complete “wrong headed thinking” nonsense! You wil neve r accept the plain truth, which howevr you have even said yourself on many occasions, but refuse to accept it when I say it, that HUMANS MAKE ERRORS.
That is A FACT, not opinion.
KEEPING BANGING YOUR HEAD AGAINST A BRICK WALL BY TRYING TO MAKE FALLIBLE HUMANS TO BE WITHOUT ERROR, IS THE SO CALLED “THINKING” OF A DULLARD, KEN.
GOOD LUCK THEN WITH TRYING TO CHANGE THE ALL TIME HUMAN CONDITION , WHICH HAS BEEN THERE CONSTANTLY, SINCE HUMANS FIRST WALKED ON EARTH.
How long are you going to flog this dead horse? And bloody stop insulting anyone who disagrees with you.
Freedom of speech my arse!
Well said 👏👏👏
I don’t look here that often only when it’s about football-wide stuff. But that guy jonfox just wrecks any debate and makes me want to never come back tbh.
No sense to what he’s writing. Just keeps on and on shouting in random capitals. Everyone seems to have given up responding to him except ken1945. Sometimes I think ken just enjoys a bit of dinosaur baiting lol. But he seems a decent bloke so prob not.
And yeah, the insults are a real real bad show.
I should say sports-wide stuff, not just football.
(I think big money is ruining sport, trying to turn it into a show instead of a competition)
Dear oh dear Jon, it seems facts, when presented to you, are making you seem like a grumpy old man, trying to stop the tide, you remind me of King Canute!!!
By the way, capitals do not enhance your dribble, in fact it makes it even more puerile, but I digress.
How refreshing it is to have someone like Neutral backing up the facts and asking pertinent questions, rather than inventing quotes that I’ve never made.
Neutral, the figures I obtained from the world cup, state that before the technology was used, referees were getting a 95.6% mark, so I guess your question about whether to accept before or after percentages is a just under 4% question.
It is also really interesting to look at and compare the big difference between, say, the Bundesliga and the PL with regards to the overall usage of var – we use the technology so much more than any other European league and in different ways.
My sincere hope is that Howard Webb, who I have criticised before, is really trying to improve the situation, as he has stated how he believes var is helpful to his members… which, of course, it should be, if used properly.
Thanks ken1945. 4% doesn’t seem much at first sight but its 1 in 25 decisions wrong which is a lot.
And if Collina is in pain over the 0.7% that got away in that WC then 4% is def a lot. tbf I think his issue was that he felt that many of the decisions in the 0.7% should have been got right with the technology as it is.
I get the impression that a lot of people just dont get into the discussion when the other guy gets into shouting etc. I notice that they respond to other posters just not him. So I think there’s more support for you than you think. But I dont spend enough time here to know for sure.
I am def interested in the comparison with other leagues as well as other sports. The process seems to be the main difference.
My interest in all of this is about how big money has changed sport. All sport not just football. To me, its for the worse. So the possible corruption in officiating is interesting to me in that context.
VAR shows us that there’s a problem, the question then is what is causing these people to make such ridiculous mistakes even their dog could get right? Is it money, bias or just incompetence?
That’s the discussion we need to be having right now so these people who hijack those discussions to start shouting crap about getting rid of var are just getting in the way tbf.
I agree with you regarding the money.
I’m getting together an article that shows how the wages of players versus the average wage of the working person has changed since 1961, when the likes of Johnny Haynes was on £10 a week and before the likes of sky got involved.
I’m trying to compare it in a generational sequence and the figures are making my eyes water!!!
Regarding the mistakes made, it beggars belief that professional referees are getting the basics so wrong, along with the var officials who seem to be in total chaos from the video sounds released.
This isn’t the way var was intended to be used and someone,somewhere needs to be held accountable – my opinion is that Mike Riley holds that particular baton!!
Jon Fox? – our footballing differences go back many years and I know sometimes I should let it go, but I hate the tactics he uses to try and intimidate others… I’ll try harder!!
I see the tactics he uses as well. I think it puts a lot of ppl off posting here. I’ve read this site a few times over a fair while and it put me off posting here. So it made me think about it before I posted the first time here (I only did it because there was one thing I hadnt seen said anywhere which I thought needed to be mentioned in the var debate).
I don’t think it’s because anyone’s afraid of him or what he writes (he writes total rubbish tbf) its just that you know you’re getting into a long shouty snowball fight with him having a closed mind, no chance he will ever admit he’s wrong about anything or reconsider his position. And writing everything in capitals is annoying lol.
I’ll watch out for your new article on wages with interest. Cheers Ken 👍
FYI, KEN, emojis do not “enhance your dribble” either . But as I have explained many times all capitals do is EMPHASISE the words I wish to emphasise.
Its called freedom of choice- presumably you believe you should be allowed to use emojis, even at your advanced age, while I am not allowed to use CAPITALS.
Well old son, tough luck!
Now we can either go on insulting one another til kingdom come, OR we can agree to differ on VAR.
Verbal War or Peace is YOUR choice, and I WILL COMPLY WITH WHICHEVER YOU CHOOSE
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
WOW KEN.
BORN IN 1945, BUT STILL AGED EIGHT.
A GOOD TRICK THAT !
Not learned to write words yet then?!
🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
🎶You’ve got me under your skin🎶
😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
And the next line is – with apologies to Cole Porter for a slight deviation- “I’ve got you deep in the fart of me”!
15 all, Your serve!
So deep in your fart I’m always a part of you – like it or not… Game, set and match 🎾🎾🎾
Ken1945 I’ve not seen those numbers before. As you said it is interesting.
99.35% is a helluva lot better than without VAR. Any improvement makes the case for VAR but that makes it clear as day.
Do you have anything listing what the differences are (between what they did in 2018 and what they do now in EPL)?
I searched on it and found the same numbers being talked about by Collina (who was prob the best ref ever) but it didn’t say what they changed to make it work so well. If anything.
Maybe Collina made the difference. He didn’t take any crap from anyone. He would def sort out the useless EPL officials in a heartbeat.
The surprising thing is Collina was not happy even with those stats. He thought it should have been even better.
Neutral, see my reply to King Canute (Jon Fox!!) above – enjoyed reading your thoughts and comments my fellow Gooner!!
Ken As you think I an King Canute,let me dub you Blind Pugh from Treasure island.
Lack of even basic vision is very apt in your case. After all you even failed to notice OZILS LEGENDARY IDLENESS anf how AFC was drifting for several years prior to AWs sacking; a sacking you refused to see and called it as a resignation, so short sightedly.
Most would call “resign Arsene or be sacked”, a SACKING!
👍
Likewise Ken.
Lol @ Canute. I was gonna go for Terry (dactyl).
I think we may have to widen the scope for people to work with var. Referees, they don’t need to be the same type of guys that we’ve always used. I suggest that computer-literate folk would better use technology, young computer geeks brushed up on the rules of the game and being very quick and detailed when pulling up images, they might also have interesting ideas on how to improve the system, one of them might even write some code that can do the job better than the error-riddled referees. I’m being serious, widen the scope
Not a bad thought.
They already have pilots and such training refs so it seems sensible to use people with other skills.
They would need to be sure that all the officials know the rules ofc, as you said. Up to now they thought it had to be someone who has been a ref on the field but that is looking like maybe not such a good idea now we can see that those guys can hardly string a sentence together.
Communication skills are important now. Those pilots and ATCs etc are all communicating when they dont have the same first language. But they get it right. If they got it wrong as often as football officials theyd be picking bodies up off runways every day.