VAR in Europe versus England by Ken 1945
We all know that VAR is just a machine, incapable of cheating or corrupting the game of football – well, anyone with a grain of common sense will know that, so why are we getting so many things wrong?
It’s the consistency when using this piece of machinery that’s causing the problems, just as we see the inconsistency of refereeing when it isn’t used.
The classic example was the decision to allow Newcastle’s goal against The Arsenal, while an identical situation in the Napoli v Berlin CL GAME last night was not.
This goal disallowed..yet Joelinton’s push for Newcastle goal given..must be because it’s the champions league! 🤦🏼♂️💩😤@FA_PGMOL pic.twitter.com/9sPY5GAn1g
— Craig Peter Dodd 🏴🇺🇦 (@goonercraig74) November 9, 2023
Both were looked at by the people using VAR and the referee was called over to look at the incidents… with completely opposite results.
Now, we all know that putting your hands on another player to gain an advantage is against the rules of football, so one has to ask, why was the Newcastle goal allowed to stand?
Incompetence? Not knowing the rules? Something else?
Since we stopped whining cz Spurs made our day here is another view for Newcastle goal@GNev2 what do u think mate pic.twitter.com/w2GfG4YPpw
— Koma (@koma_AFC) November 7, 2023
Whatever it is, why did it happen in the PL and why is VAR used differently here than elsewhere?
The outcry against these unexplainable decisions are gaining momentum and fair-minded fans around the country are not just being motivated by their support of their own club – it’s becoming a movement that is demanding fair play for everyone.
We wouldn’t have a game without referees, and the training to become one (at grass root levels) is intense and thorough… at least it was when I took it back in the distant past!!
The thing is, even then it was stressed that every decision comes from following the rule book.
No helping out a colleague who was having a difficult game, as Mr Dean seemed to think he had the right to do.
So, what’s the answer?
Some want VAR banned, but it has been proven that VAR (when used correctly) has improved decision making, it’s when referees are inconsistent with their decisions, despite VAR showing what actually happened, that is causing the problem.
With all the money swirling around football, why on earth haven’t the powers to be got together and insisted that VAR is used in the same way throughout the game?
Why haven’t they installed Hawkeye around the total area of the pitch in order to ensure that the ball is either in or out of play?
Why are referees (both on the field and those operating VAR) not asked directly why they have made a decision that, on the face of it, goes against the rule book?
Why are referees not accountable?
VAR is here to stay, it is a positive extension for the referees to use while they carry out their duties, as the stats regarding correct decisions being made now confirm.
Let’s ensure that they are fully trained in its use, along with the rule book… meanwhile getting FIFA to spend some money improving the system and everyone uses it in the same way.
I’m proud of the way true football fans are coming together over this, just as they did with the “Super league” debacle.
Let’s keep calling out the injustice of blaming a machine and, instead, take the common-sense approach and question the people who install and use the system.
ken1945
CALLING ALL ARSENAL FANS!please contact us through this link…
Referee’s are always making these mistakes because they are incompetent and the sheer lock of leadership of the officiating body.
It is as simple as that.
It’s beyond incompetence now.
VAR has been in operation for 4/5 years now, so it’s not possible for there to still be “teething problems” and not knowing the rules.
Humans are fallible, and that’s the problem – because it always comes down to human decision making. Like I said, incompetence is inexcusable since the introduction of VAR because you get unlimited time, lots of angles, real time and slow mo. So it’s just not possible to consistently make so many shocking errors.
Once you’ve removed the “mistakes” excuse you’re only left with possibility of bias (conscious and unconscious) and outright corruption.
As a retired youth referee and instructor of referees I could give you a one word answer. Bullshit. But assuming good will on your part I will elaborate. In no other game is the referee’s judgment so important. As for the push, the commentators split on whether it was a foul. Was the Arsenal defender already going down or not? As for your notion that no player may lay hands on an opponent, that’s false. Look at any game, say one don’t involving Arsenal, and keep track of all the hands and arms touching opponents.
At last! Somebody who actually knows what they’re talking about.
Thank you Don.
As a retired referee myself Jax, unless the rules have changed (which they haven’t, hence the Napoli decision) Joelington clearly used his hands to gain an advantage – why did Gabriel not head the ball away? Becahse he was impeded!
The fact that players do put their hands etc on their opponents doesn’t mean that is within the law.
Look at the times players are manhandled to the ground and bd no action is taken.
I watch as much football as I can, so the jibe about not watching The Arsenal is nonsense.
Absolute nonsense!
Once you’re in the air, it only takes the slightest nudge to knock you off balance, and that’s why keepers always get the decision their way when barely touched jumping to catch a ball, because their balance is gone.
I agree that physical contact shouldn’t always mean a foul, but Jolington didn’t compete for the ball, he pushed Gabriel in the back with both hands.
And you’re lying to yourself and ignoring human nature if you say referees don’t have bias. Of course they’re meant to treat every incident on an individual basis, but we know that doesn’t happen.
I’ll give you two perfect examples.
So many times we see an obvious red card early in a game between two big boys, and refs will rarely give it. Why? Because the fear of ruining a huge fixture early overrides their objective decision making ability.
Secondly, refs will have a pre determined view of a player or a club, let’s say a consistent diver like Neymar. Meaning even if Neymar is genuinely fouled, the refs first thought would be to say no foul.
Think of clubs. Man Utd would get away with murder at Old Trafford under Fergie. Barcelona were basically UEFALONA with the blatent bias refereeing in the CL. Don’t tell me refs weren’t bais or corrupt as we’ve seen in Spanish and Italian football amongst other leagues.
Don, correct, i did not want to say on here that i was once a referee because of all the backlash but well done for saying that and yes you are correct. What i found when refereeing is you only ever pleased one set of fans or team, whatever decision you made. And people told you where you went wrong when they didn’t understand the rules or the situation. Some on here ought to try refereeing and they would get a big shock.
Was the ball out?
With the angles available , which they use , there is no single photo of the ball in.
You cannot make a decision based on the possibility that it was in on images neither used nor available .
With the current technology , it was out..
This, and the even more egregious ignoring a player being deliberately struck on the head by an opponent is the real problem with VAR, not necessarily the arguable foul.
In your opinion and you cant prove and neither can anyone else otherwise. There are photos from a camera in line that VAR couldn’t use to say the ball was in. The rest is opinion.
Rrggi6, I agree that one cannot prove the ball was out – does the example above prove that Gabriel was pushed in the back by using VAR and does the Napoli example prove the same by using var.
Now, assuming you believe what your eyes are telling you, why were different decisions made and was var responsible for the said different decisions being made? If not, who was?
Don, as a former referee, when you saw a player (as in the photographs shown above) putting two hands into the back of an opponent in order to gain an advantage, what decision did you give?
What instructions did you give to those you were instructing?
Was it to ignore the rules?
Tell me where it says players can lay their hands on another player?
I’m not saying that players don’t have physical contact with each other am I?
What I’m saying is that if a player gains an advantage by placing, pushing or knocking an opponent off the ball by using his own body (hands, arms, feet, head or torso) bar shoulder to shoulder, that is a foul, pure and simple. Do you agree that this is correct?
So tell me Don, what is the difference between the two examples given above and why on was given and the other not?
Also, why is the referee’s judgement more important in football than any other game?
That statement seems to me complete BS.
My mother once told me, if you are doing something and everyone else is doing it differently and also think you are doing it wrong, you should atleast rethink what you are doing.
Apart from apologizing from the leadership of the officiating body, why aren’t there concrete step to address the inconsistencies of the referees.
The correct decision was iwith the identical situation in the Napoli vs Berlin Champions league game and everyone live happily after.
Well written Ken1945. The fact that we hardly ever have complaints regarding refereeing after Champions League matches shows that the problem is with the personnel in the EPL.
The English referees knew very well what they were doing. They also knew it was wrong and was flouting the rules. The big difference between refereeing and other practices, is that they are protected and defended by their body, which in turn has absolute immunity from any action by any footballing body. As in other aspects of life, without enforcement, rules are as good as not being there. In our societies, law enforcement agents are not above the law themselves. Instead a lot is expected from them to set a good example to society. It would be wrong to assign serial offenders the responsibility to enforce the law.
Wrong!!! Stop talking rubbish.
Referees, and by default PGMOL do not have “immunity from any action by any footballing body”. They’re answerable to The FA, The Premier League and The Football League, who jointly employ them.
So , ‘Mr Rubbish talk,’ when does the FA, Premier league or Football league take action on the multiple, flagrant misapplication of football rules?. Your rant is devoid of any sense at all as long as you can’t point to an incident where an aggrieved club is not told to move on and punitive action is taken to sanction the offender. I know of measures taken to punish players pointing out mistakes to the Demi-gods, but non to protect their teams and fans from the emotional abuse and financial losses caused by deliberate actions by referees. When a referee takes a wrong decision to protect his mate, doesn’t that warrant some kind of reprimand by the bodies you’re citing as employers?
No sir, you are wrong. Many referees get demoted and censured, every week, if they make massive errors on a regular basis.
I’m not telling you WHEN or HOW actions are implemented. I’m telling you WHO they are answerable to.
Jax, the PGMOL are an independent body, who supply referees to the PL and the EFL.
Due to Mike Riley, the referees are self governed by the PGMOL, who are the only ones who can discipline, promote, sack or employ them.
The last time I checked, those who referee in the EPL, are classed as self employed, perhaps this has changed?
The FA, PL and the EPL use the PGMOL as suppliers of referees and do not directly employ any referee.
That is my understanding and it was how Mike Riley was able to ensure that, from the beginning of the PL era, his members were internally controlled.
The PGMOL also set the salaries of individual referees within said organisation.
Now, if this situation has changed, perhaps you can direct me to the source of your information?
Ken, read the last line of this Wiki entry.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Professional Game Match Officials Limited (PGMOL) is the body responsible for refereeing games in English professional football.
Formerly known as the Professional Game Match Officials Board (PGMOB), the PGMOL was formed when English referees became professional in 2001, to provide officials for all games played in the Premier League, English Football League (EFL) and Football Association (FA) competitions.[1] In doing so, England became the first country in the world to fully professionalise its referees.[1] The organisation is a not-for-profit company limited by guarantee owned and funded by the Premier League, EFL, and the FA.[2][3]
Yes, I read that as well.
But they are an independent arm, run completely separate and answerable to no one but themselves.
Why do you think the fa, PL and efl don’t discipline them for instance?
This happens all the time in business, a company takes over another, but they remain independent of each other.
I’d love to know why their owners let them do as they please. I’m sure that The FA etc. could if they wished disband this not fit for purpose outfit and form a new one if it ever came to it, after all they’ve done it once and for the same reasons.
No Jax, the PGMOL was formed the same time as the PL was formed.
Referees became professionals, self employed (in some instances) and it was nothing to do with incompetence or anything else.
I know how difficult it is to referee and I just want to see consistency, both on and off the field.
PL referees get paid handsomely and should be allowed to explain their decisions – otherwise how can they be judged?
We see these punitive sentences, where a ref is demoted one week, then gets what is probably the highest profile match the next – chelsea versus city!!
He’s on a hiding to nothing wouldn’t you say?
At first I thought to myself: As long as there’s the human presence there will continue to be human error.
This statement above would have been a sound excuse until you realize that this so call errors are mostly frequent in the EPL. And this started ever since unending money started flowing into EPL. The rate of ridiculous officiating is beyond incompetence. Every one keeps saying incompetent officiating. Do you all realize that some of these refs have been at these job for years and have wealth of experience. Some even have the FIFA badges. If you do a research on these officials you will see that lots of them have stacked CVs, lots of them have gone through extensive and highly professional trainings. So the excuse of being incompetent can not be it.
There’s only one word to describe the mess currently going on: CORRUPTION
It is corruption nothing else.
And why not when there is absolutely no accountability and no consequences of this deliberate substandard officiating?
What makes it even more ridiculous than it already is, is the defense of this ripe corruption from fans themselves.
Accountable to their employers:
The FA.
The. Premier League.
The Football League.
Study the reaction of Joelington when the ball goes into the net – he knew he had fouled Gabriel, believed he would be called out and didn’t celebrate like the goalscorer….. just LOOK at his body language!!!!!!!!!!
Neutral here, seeing this on a few sites.
Agree with all ken1945 wrote. VAR here to stay. It has improved things. Ken asked all the right questions that everyone else is asking right now.
So I just have one thing to add, nobody else seems to be picking this point up. Basically, VAR may be exposing problems that would be hidden without VAR.
Reason I say that is remembering the old days before VAR. We heard the excuses – ref was unsighted, ref was too far away to get a clear view. Or even “How did the ref miss that?”.
Same with linesmen calling offside. People just accepted human error because the humans had no tech to help them.
But now. VAR makes sure we all see the same thing so we all know these bad calls can only be 1 of 3 things – incompetence, a bad process or corruption.
They can’t be that incompetent so often, we all see that.
Yeah, the process is naff. Like Ken says why can’t we hear what they are saying? But that’s not enough to get all these calls wrong.
So what does that leave? The other thing.
If we didn’t have VAR, we wouldn’t be able to see this so clearly. So people calling for an end to VAR because of bad decisions, be careful what you wish for. That would leave corruption hidden behind a pretence of incompetence and human error. VAR is showing it for what it is. If they improve the process it will show it up even more.
A lot or people going around saying var is bad/useless and should be removed.
VAR stands for Video Assistant Referee and the whole issue here is the referee part. Doesn’t matter what advanced technology if an incompetent buffoon is put in charge of it, the result will be the same.
In fact Var has exposed just how much terrible and incompetent epl ref are. If lee mason can forgot to do the simple job of drawing lines, how the hell was he trusted to make critical judgment calls as the main ref.
The farce that was the Liverpool offside goal was an embarrassment,they lack simple communication skills. How difficult is it to say ok check complete goal not offside.
Mike dean situation is plain and simple corruption and unprofessional. I don’t neglect to tell my co worker friend he is making a massive mistake which will have a huge repercussion just cause he is having a bad day.
Also is that a coincidence that apart from the rashford offside goal its been mostly man city rivals for the season that have been impacted by this bad decisions.
How is it not deem a major conflict of interest that ref are paid by UAE to referee matches when they own clubs in epl. How do we prevent them from slipping a hey be lenient or favor newcastle vs arsenal or spurs vs liv when sending the pay check.
The major problem to me seems to be this:
The refs interpret the rules rather than enforce them.
For example, an opponent uses their hands on a defender in the box, like Jolington on Gabriel. It should be deemed interference and a foul. Instead, the ref “interprets” if it was enough force or not.
Enforce the rules, don’t try to interpret intent.
The refs should have post match interviews to explain controversial decisions. Explain their decision making process.
Proper training is needed, too many times a foul in one match is not a foul in another.
The refs escape accountability, they should be answerable like players and managers.
You have a point there Durand and nobody can judge what power had/has been generated, if any or if a lot. The big problem with football and is the same with the handball, is you have to use your hands arms for leverage and balance.
Whether you are in favour of VAR or not , it has become the centre stage of virtually every match with Broadcasters and Pundits focussing on the “system” to the detriment of the actual match , tactics and player performance.Not only are we faced with technical flaws and inconsistency in its interpretation, but the basic rules of the game are fast making football a non contact sport.The diabolical hand ball interpretation has been introduced by individuals who evidently have never played the game at a decent level.How else can you explain the chaotic idea of the requirement to jump for a high ball without using the natural leverage that is needed from the fans of the fact that many defenders feel obliged to confront the opposition with their arms behind their backs.Can any sprint effectively without pumping their arms?.Basically some of the current rules , including the offside trap need to be changed quickly in the best long term interests of the game otherwise, fans like me who are fed up with the failure of officialdom to admit the errors of their ways, will stop watching matches which in many cases are becoming a complete lottery.Personally I feel VAR should be restricted to goal line and offside decisions and should not be used to influence the subjective decisions of referees who are fast becoming redundant in terms of authority.
The truth is Grandad, there are too many rules, more added too often and it all needs simplifying.
Apologies for some typos but I hope you get the gist of what I am trying to say.
VAR was fundamental in denying Arsenal the 2022/23 EPL trophy. Uncomfortable with our chase for a repeat of invincible record, we are to be stopped by a goal scored from a ball picked outside the four corners of the pitch and two -hand push that felled the potential defender. Nothing could be more disappointing from a League reputed as EPL. POGMOL must go beyond apology this time around to addressing this global football scandal and rebuild confidence of its team of stakeholders.
There will always be mistakes, whatever you do because humans are involved and every humans sees thing slightly differently, for one to another anyway. The biggest problem is with VAR or the way it is policed, is the rules. Professional footballers do not have any involvement in the rules procat all and probably dont agree with half of them. The other problem is interpretation of the rule, again people, all people see interpretation differently. The other problem is actually understanding the rule, we all do not understand the rule, the proccess and what can and cant be looked at, changed and why. They are trying tomake VAR an exact science and it isnt and it cant be. There are too many things that can affect and effect that. I personally are very happy that VAR are getting upto 15% decisions more right than when it was all down to a referee and linesman, whom were not capable of keeping up with play and see all what was happening around them.
To add, PGMOL has hijacked the rogue act of match-fixing hitherto exercised by teams.
The simple question is – Is football more enjoyable since in the introduction of VAR?
It certainly creates more discussion on JustArsenal and other blogs.
But since you ask, I enjoy it when VAR gives a decision in our favour and hate when it doesn’t.
For me yes.
Well penned! that goal simply should not have stood for numerous dodgy reasons. I agree with the notion that VAR is NOT and never will be the problem, it’s the rather incompetent/corrupt or both referees and it’s governing body who are the cabals involved in all these BS. It’s even funny they’ve managed to get the media behind them. I hope they meet their waterloo sooner than later. Bloody criminals!!!
I read Kens interesting piece and he knows that I completely disagree with him and with many others, when I say ,once again, that VAR has and still is constantly RUINING the all important enjoyment of its lifeblood fans, and that is in every ground at Prem level.
I WAS AGAINST IT FROM ITS VERY START AND I HAVE BEEN PROVEN CORRECT, IN COMING OUT FIRMLY AND CONSTANTLY AGAINST IT.
Lets be honest with ourselves, there has been a mountain of articles and discussions about it over its four years stay and so much has been written on all sides.
But now, according to several reports , there is a serious chance of it being rethought about and a different stance gaining support.
It has been as much discredited as the modern Tory party and there is widespread derision , esp from fans who attend games, on every fan phone in.
Despite what KEN SAYS, I FIRMLY BELIEVE THE MAJORITY OF FANS WHO ATTEND WOULD LOVE IT ABOLISHED.
KEN SAYS IT IS HERE TO STAY.
I SAY HE IS VERY WRONG AND THAT IN TIME IT WILL BE REPLACED BY AUTOMATED INTELLIGENCE , A FORM OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE WHERE HUMANS MISTAKES WILL BE IRRELEVANT.
And that will be because humans will , in time, be nowhere near the new and improved form of eradicating refs mistakes, when non human decision making will prevail.
From the outset I advised waiting until we could get automated tech, without human errors involved. That WILL, in time, obviously BE the solution.
So once again KEN, WE MUCH DISAGREE ABOUT A BASIC FOOTBALL MATTER. Neither you nor I will be at all surprised at that, as we are both well used to disagreeing.
Jon, yes we disagree with the present situation.
However, var, in its present form will obviously be expanding and improving, just as most everything else invented by men/women tend to do.
It can only be hoped that football, in its entirety, is able to expand with it!
That, surely, doesn’t need saying or discussing, as most intelligent people know that this is how progress happens?
Indeed they DO know that Ken.
And the MORE intelliigent of those people also know that UNTIL sufficient technology advancement has allowed that progress to work automatically, WITHOUT human hands and “brains” interpreting wrong decisions on its behalf, it OUGHT to have been delayed in its introduction.
UNTIL automation meant it would work efficiently and NOT constantly ruin fans enjoyment.
SOME of us have been saying that for all its ruinous time, these last four years.
We now have the “Independent VAR Panel” saying, by a 4 to 1 majority that Gabriel was not pushed leading up to the goal, so we should be able to, at the very least, ask them for an explanation right?.. The problem is, we don’t know who they are, as their identities are secret!!!
Have you EVER heard anything so ridiculous in your life?!
We, the fans, are not allowed to know who they are – just as we are not allowed to hear why a referee, either on the field or in the var room, made their decisions!
These five people could be Eddie Howe, Neville, Carragher, Joelington, Arsene Wenger and Tony Adams for all we know, but we aren’t allowed to know who they are…. why is that?
We are not allowed to hear the officials explaining their contentious decisions… why is that?
Aren’t we the paying public who turn up every week, pay our money and aren’t we the life blood of the game?
Mikel Arteta was slaughtered by the likes of Carragher, Neville, Owen etc etc etc but lo and behold, when Liverpool are denied a last minute equaliser, or United have a player sent off, they think that they can say whatever they want about the refereeing and VAR decisions!!!!
What a complete load of nonsense and hypocritical BS and yet, var itself STILL gets the blame for these human beings, who have no moral compasses whatsoever!!
Thank God the fans, who are kept in the dark, are starting to band together and DEMAND answers.
Spot on KEN . But I point out as I DID to Harold on this very thread, that VAR as currently run, IS operated by error prone humans and therefore IS error prone.
ALL human activity is also ERROR PRONE, AS WE ARE BORN WITH DESIGN FAULTS.
All the MORE sensible reason to wait- not for long, as auto tech is just around the corner-until error prone humans can be excluded from its operation ALTOGETHER.
I believe the simple reason for all this VAR madness is corruption, there’s a syndicate of refs betting on games so it sways their decision based on who they’ve got their money on, they can’t win every weekend but here and there they make sure they back a winner, it’s a totally corrupt system and needs to be binned.
In football games all who play and who are on the touch line are punished when breaking the rules. Why referees are not punished when breaking the rules. They think they are above the rules. Managers and loses their jobs, clubs lose sponsors due to these pathetic decisions, but the refs get away with it, and is just called a mistake,
Telegraph reporting that football’s lawmakers have begun talks over major changes to how video assistant referees operate – and semi-automated offside could be introduced to the Premier League next season.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/11/10/var-changes-ifab-semi-automated-offside-premier-league/
(you need a subscription to read it)
As Ken says, it will be improved. If it uses hawkeye on the lines, automated offside, other forms of AI or whatever, they’re all just ways of improving the technology that makes decisions or helps with decisions.
Personally I don’t think what they’re now talking about doing is good enough. People watching need to hear what’s being said.
When I heard that audio they released after Pool kicked up a fuss what was most in my mind when I heard it was – what a load of incoherent babbling (compared to the focused articulate discussion we got between officials in the rugby world cup).
It also sounded to me like the VAR ref and var assistant ref might be doing that deliberately, maybe to cover their tracks for a decision they knew was wrong. Dunno, just the feeling I got. The guy who was flagging up the error was just the tech guy that cues up the replays and he prob shouldnt even be speaking. But whatever, it was a load of gibbering halfwits talking nonsense. Not what I expected. Not the way to get to good decisions.
Greetings, there is nothing wrong with VAR, it’s the humans who use it and make the final decision. Burnley v arsenal yesterday, 2x arsenal were penalized for hand(1) one, to be specific,. Last week a goal was allowed to stand in spite of 2hands on player. VAR didn’t decide, human decided.
Harold, Gosh, talk about completely missing the whole point!
VAR as currently practised, IS used by the “humans”you mention.
And therefore, ipso facto, it is THOSE HUMANS who make it the weekly farce it is!
Seems you, as a new user of JA, have never ever read even one of my regular posts condemning the concept of VAR, while humans run it!
I have MANY TIMES written that ONLY when VAR or its future equivalent can be FULLY AUTOMATED with NO human involvement whatsoever, can it ever be expected to work efficiently.
Perhaps it has escaped your notice that ALL humans, no matter whom, ALWAYS MAKE ERRORS.
We are designed that way, as I have been constantly reminding non people observers on here, of which , sadly, there are very many.
Until fully automated VAR is ready, which will not be far away and is just around the corner , the game spoiling farce that it is, OUGHT NEVER to have been introduced.
Care to reply please HAROLD?
I read somewhere during the past week that the PL is meeting to discuss the possibility of soon introducing semi-automated offside tech. , so there’s a glimmer of hope of improvements.
Perhaps you read it 2 posts above your own?
No it was before that, Most likely the Guardian, although if I’d taken the trouble read your post I wouldn’t have brought it up again. Too much stuff gets repeated ad infinitum.