Arsenal Debate – What is the actual benefit of Kai Havertz?

The Why for Kai?

To add back story, I’m a big fan of the Arteta project. I like the heavy accountability on players, the trust given to those that buy in, and the attitude requirements to not only remain in the squad, yet the even greater expectations to be named in the starting 11.

The part I can’t grasp is what the actual benefit of Kai Havertz is?? Across all sports leagues there is always a little extra leash granted to those with a high price tag before the axe eventually connects with the chopping block.

And the brain trust at Arsenal surely have a leg up on me when it comes to knowing the abilities, and capabilities, of their players.

Yet, I’m struggling after each and every outing, pre season or when it counts, to identify even the slightest of mediocre benefits as to why when it comes to choosing Kai.

Honestly I feel the Why/Kai rhyme is the best thing I could have found, yet even I start to cringe as I repeat it.

I hope I see what Arteta sees soon, if for no other reason then to no longer feel the second hand embarrassment that qualified teammates surely feel when they watch their hard earned starting position being squandered by lacklustre efforts and tired attempts on the ball.

Wait!… did he even touch the ball in the Palace match? At least we have David Raya to teach footwork now…

John Picco


Havertz’s actual stats against Crystal Palace (from whoscored)

Shots….. 1
Shots OT.. 0
Key passes. 1
Aerials Won 4
Pass compl. 89.3 %
Touches…. 41

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Tags Havertz


    1. Couldn’t have said it better. Havertz won four aerial duels, whereas Saliba and White just won two:



      We need him to flick/ win the ball in the final-third and to score/ defend in set-pieces, as Giroud did

        1. Only time will tell, he seems to be the type that will only get going when his feet are properly wet.

          He’s not doing bad during his integration phase in my opinion, Smith Rowe should be loan to Aston Villa if he’s still not played on Saturday.

          1. I would have preferred ESR given a chance. From what i have seen at Chelsea and so far here, he deserved a chance.

          2. More phases Gunsmoke? How many integration phases are there and how long is each phase?

            At 65M with huge wages and having spent many years in the EPL you better hit the ground running….Trossard did immediately!

            1. As did Rice. Even Tomiyasu and Timber who came from other leagues. Will keep on counting the excuses until we reach their DNA are different. Havertz DNA need much time.

                1. Mediocrity at play. He adds nothing to the team. Trossard might even fancy the xhaka role. He will command the position. Harvetz is a ridiculous luxury buy forr arsenal not knowing what to do with the cash available to them

            2. PJ-SA
              In my opinion Havertz was bought on impulse, the gaffer was just stunned to find the young German international with all those champions league experience under his belt available.

              His natural position is Odegaard # 10 role or behind the striker.
              He’s not a bad buy, ideally Odegaard and Havertz should not be playing at the same time.

      1. Gai, apart from aerial abilities I don’t see why ESR can’t be tried in the place of Havertz he is of moderate height too and possess good quality. Well, I guess Arteta wants to maximize the 65M paid Chelsea.
        He has done OK so far 5/10 but yet to be exceptional.
        However, it’s a long season and many games for Havertz to prove his worth. My fingers crossed.
        But I guess the Havertz debate by fans won’t stop any time soon.

  1. It’s a very simple problem. Kai is best in the position currently occupied by Odegaard. I have no doubts he would look much better and be more effective if played there.

    Now he won’t replace captain Ode as a starter and Ode (touch wood) does not seem to be injury prone at all.

    All of this is the exact reason the whole transfer baffled so many, not so much because Havertz doesn’t have potential, but more because we have Ode/Trossard/ESR that can all play that role well.

    I wish Havertz well but now it’s at the expense of Trossard and even more so ESR…both being bigger goal contributors than Havertz as well.

  2. I am no manager, but I see 2 teammates, who would supposedly think they should play instead of Havertz; Trossard & ESR.
    If either were playing instead of Havertz, I think we would be very light in midfield physically.
    While, I don’t think Havertz has impressed I am quite happy to see him in the position as long as Partey is used as a back to give Arteta the inverted back, he wants.

      1. Inverted full back means that when in possession and going forwards, the full back moves into midfield.

  3. We’ll know a lot more come the end of the season.

    Personally, I think he’s done ok. Nothing spectacular so far, but I can’t say he’s been blatantly poor either.

    Certainly a gamble, especially at the price tag, but MA is backing himself to unlock the amazing potential Havertz showed at Leverkusen.

    However, the criticism he’s already receiving is beyond a joke! He’s only played 3 games!!!! He’s still integrating into a new team and a new system of play.

    I have no issue with those critiquing his performances, but some fans are hammering him so much that they’ve decided his Arsenal career to be a failure, and that he should be sold…AFTER 3 GAMES!!!!!!!

    Good job we don’t listen to these clueless so called “fans” otherwise it would have been bye bye Henry, Bergkamp and Pires as well!

    1. Thank you Jen. He’s our player and I’m behind him. Arteta has a plan and we must be patient and supportive.

    2. I explained to you before why I think using Henry and Bergkamp as examples is a cheap out ticket and very bad examples.

      We have to wait until the end of the season now? Not so sure now it will take him few games like you were before eenh!

        1. Oh she was quite confident Havertz will come good after some games but now she has shifted goalpost so far to the end of the season.

          That says something doesn’t it?

      1. My point is that Havertz can be a success story, but he could also be a fiasco. We can influence on the outcome and should be aware of our responsibility.

      2. Firstly, you’re still making a judgement on a player before they’ve even played a handful of games. Its irrespective if if they had EPL experience or not.

        Secondly, and on that EPL experience point, you’re using no context in regards to Havertz. Yes he wasn’t great at Chelsea, and yes it could be that the league is too tough for him, but you’re forgetting that he was rarely used in his best position, and Chelsea were a complete mess of a club for almost the entirety of his time there – hence poor showings from so many other top players at Chelsea as well.

  4. Let me be succinct here, Kai is an excellent player but not actually the kind of player Arteta’s Arsenal needs. He falls in the same ambit with Pepe. There sluggish playing style is incompatible with the EPL. Thus, it’s hightime Arteta dropped him in favour of Smith Rowe if good playing still and winning are needed.

    1. How are you so sure that Arteta doesnt need him when Arteta is the one that convinced the board to buy him? Arteta saw something in Kai that convinced him to buy him only time will tell if it was a waste of money or not.

  5. People who don’t see or understand the importance of what a player does off the ball, and what a player does to win a ball back high up the pitch think that KH is rubbish.

    It’s all tosh and that’s proving true given that Arteta plays him every min of most games…

    He is pure quality and works incredibly hard.

  6. I suppose Havertz was brought in as an 8 to play the Xhaka role. The problem is we also signed D.Rice and Partey has been excellent so it’s either Arteta tinkers with formations until he finds a way of starting all his expensive, shiny new signings or somebody starts sitting on the bench. The gamble worked well with Jurrien Timber a RB being moved to LB, it could work with Havertz. 10 games is how long I give Havertz before I decide if he is an asset or liability but based on his wages alone he is already gravitating towards being a liability. The type of wages he is on always attracts unnecessary pressure and this is what I was afraid of as soon as I heard he is on Ozil-money.

  7. arteta is really joking he is not serious why changing formation of playing bringing confusion to the all team???

  8. Well, he is big and a presence both up front and in defence. He is also a capable footballer on the ball and as a passer.

    He just needs his confidence rebuilding after suffering through that awful time at Chelsea

    I’m sure that is being worked on and that he will blossom under Arteta.

    Let’s hope so anyway!!!

  9. Havertz needs one thing from us and that is patience so he can rebuild his confidence. Have we got a new king with potential to play like Henry, or just another player we can treat bad?

    1. Nobody is saying treat him bad. What people are saying is justify your existence in this team. Because whatever excuses we have, he isnt.

      1. It’s too early, and Havertz needs time and support. He must rebuild his confidence and hopefully he will show you what he’s capable of 🔴⚪️

      2. They insinuate as if we are saying Haverts will be a failure at arsenal. Whereas we all know most managers will introduce a new player into the team gradually especially when you have good players available.
        Playing him ahead of Trosard/ESR is not justified by the stats either.

  10. Oh, how we missed a worthy scapegoat last season. How did so many people survive last season? Supported Chelsea instead?

  11. Reportedly, Havertz is our highest paid player at £330,000 a week and it was reported that he was on £250,000 a week at Chelsea, so a massive hike in salary, but
    that is of zero importance to me as a supporter. .. if the owner can afford it, sanctions it, then who am I to question it?

    The only two things that I can complain about, regarding the player, after three games (one of which saw the first silverware being lifted in three years remember) is that it has forced MA to change a strong back four and move a midfield expert in order to accommodate him.
    Secondly, it has stopped ESR and Trossard in their tracks as far as their progression is concerned.

    The fact is that the other two outfield signings, Rice and Timber, have already proven their worth and strengthened both the defence and midfield, while it has not been that evident that Havertz, to date, has had the same effect.

    Furthermore, our fanbase seemingly needs at least one player to scapegoat on a regular basis… who better than an ex chelsea player who failed to impress there, our top earner and two very unimpressive PL performances by the club versus most of last season?

    Welcome to The Arsenal – your on a hiding to nothing… even though MA says you are doing everything he has asked you to do!! Funny old game.

    1. He hasn’t earned his place in the team Jon or has he? He might end up coming good ! But so far it’s a free hit at the expense of other performing athletes.

  12. Come on….two games in, playing in a team that aren’t settled yet.
    Trossard & ESR are good players but zero aerial presence. On corners & advanced free kicks we now for the first time in years have a number of players that look capable of winning balls.

    1. So you’d favour aerial presence over 2 midfielders that are proven goal scorers?

      What do you want aerial presence for? I’m assuming goals right? but you want goal scorers to sit on the bench so that we can have some aerial presence to maybe score goals?

      Makes complete sense……….

      1. Agree with you regarding your take on goalscorers sitting on the bench – shouldn’t Nketiah have been sitting there, while Trossard was plying his trade?

    2. Is arsenal now stoke city that the criteria for playing a player is height and area abilities?
      And we played Timber and Tomi at the expense of Gabriel

  13. No-one is using Havertz as a scapegoat for all of those that are severely misinformed, we are saying he should earn his place in the team and not be an auto start because MA is trying to prove something.

    Can’t actually believe there are fans here that are upset with other fans suggesting a player should earn his place in the team lol

    The comprehension level of some fans here is frighteningly low.

    1. He’s playing because our manager want him integrated as soon as possible. He’s fully aware that this process will influence on our play and perhaps our results. It’s a calculated risk and Arteta isn’t afraid of doing it.

    2. The comprehension level that you are seemingly missing yourself, is that he is being judged, sentenced and hung out to dry after just two PL games… we can all be positive about his contribution in the CS win can’t we?

      As Jen said above, if we took your outlook regarding earning a place, then the likes of Bergkamp , Henry, Pires and even Saliba would be deemed to have failed.

      1. Those players you mentioned did not cost arsenal a fortune and none were on a ridiculously high wage.

        The question we should ask ourselves is, if Arteta had inherited a player like Havertz, will he play him for 90 minutes and even change the team formation because of him? The answer is obviously No!

        I fact the Arteta we all know will not allow Havertz into the training ground talk more of giving him a player time. He would have told him straight up to find another club.

        I MAY BE WRONG

    3. You and your type are using him as a scapegoat given the fact that y’all are whining over his presence in a starting line up that has earned 6points in 6.and of course he has earned his place by pleasing Arteta to do what he was asked which does not include creating chances and scoring yet as evident in our first two league games and community shield.ESR and trossard can’t carryout cos of their height and creativity skills which is suited to something else such as their role in community shield.

    4. People are using Havertz as the scapegoat for this “recent” change in the formation and Partey playing at RB otherwise people would have complained in the last two games of the previous season. It was the similar lineup in both of those games against Forest and Wolves. Only difference was Havertz wasn’t there to blame.

    5. Perhaps in training Havertz has impressed Arteta enough to earn a place and start him. I seem to remember Bergkamps first 7 or 8 games he didn’t score and was looking a waste of money, then he clicked and the rest is history. Before I get a load of criticism I’m not suggesting Havertz is in Bergkamps class but give the guy a chance he’s only played 2 or 3 games.

    6. 100% true. He should earn his place in training and as a sub because right now there are better players in better form warming bench so he could be automatic starter. That is not scapegoating, that is reality.

  14. I think Havertz brings two important qualities that no one else in the squad does. The most obvious one is height and the advantages that accrue due to that like being an outlet/target from goalkeeper launches as an alternative to passing out from the back. We saw this on multiple occasions against Palace,particularly after the red card. I assume Arteta needed an outlet/target to go over the Palace unrelenting press. We also saw it a couple of times against City in the first half. The other advantage of his height is goalscoring. More than 30% of his goals have been headers-it’s a genuine weapon if fully exploited. I feel like the team has failed him so far in the sense that our corner/free kicks have been below par. For some reason,deliveries from Saka,Martinelli and Odegaard have been uncharacteristically poor. Multiple times this season,corners from Saka and Martinelli have failed to beat the first man.Sometimes the deliveries have gone straight to the keeper, and on one occasion against Forest, a corner was over hit by either Saka or Martinelli,it went straight outside – not good enough. Something’s not right in that department.With all the set pieces we had against Palace,not one troubled Palace,except the ingenious one by Martinelli that lead to the penalty.If we want to exploit Havertz’s height,we’ll need to improve on the deliveries.

    The less obvious quality is his ability to read and use space; his off the ball movement . In this regard, he has been likened to his compatriot Thomas Muller who coined the German phrase Raumdeuter. “Raumdeuter to mean ‘space interpreter’ is a role in which the player has two main objectives. First, find the space in the opposition’s defence. Second,exploit the space. The player does not occupy a fixed position; his position on the pitch is determined by where the space is.”-Saumy Deepak.The two goals he scored in preseason are typical of this role. I also feel like the teammates around him have not fully exploited this quality.Perhaps it’s because they are not accustomed to playing with a footballer with this particular quality/skillset ;it may take time to build this understanding. I have observed a few times when Havertz has moved into space,demanded the ball only for the teammate to opt for a safer option.

    Finally I think Havertz’s work rate is underrated. Against City,he won a certain tackle in midfield which gave a spark to Arsenal after utter domination from City in the first 20 minutes. Sometimes I feel like some the flak he gets could be a psychological response from people who watch him rather than football related. He has this countenance/demeanor that almost appears expressionless or uninterested. I know because I have a similar demeanor and people are often quick to mention how bored or upset I look even when I’m not-it’s just the way he is and he can’t change it. I once read an article that postulated that people with such demeanors (some of whom are on the autistic spectrum) are less likely to be liked by other people compared to those with ever smiling outgoing-ish demeanors.Anyway, I wish Havertz well and hope he performs well for us. But if he doesn’t live to the expectations ,I hope the manager doesn’t hesitate to drop him for the good of the team because we now have genuinely good options.

    1. Great points, completely agree. I think the space-finding is not going to be appreciated unless he starts finding himself on the end of passes, but it makes a big difference for his teammates.
      I don’t think his aerial abilities are as significant as others seem to – he’s no Drogba, I don’t expect a lot of headed goals from him – I just think he can give us a bit more presence in certain situations, and he might help us gain possession from a few more hoofed clearances from either box than we otherwise could.
      I’d add that I think the way we press opponents is a key part of our tactics – seems to be a major consideration for all clubs these days – and I think havertz is very clever from that perspective as well.
      I noticed that tackle vs city as you did – to that point, they’d been passing around us, making it look easy to keep the ball, and that tackle kind of woke the rest of our team up a bit.
      Hope he can find a way to be more influential with the ball, but i actually think he’s made a big contribution in the first few games. It’s just been very understated.

      1. Yes Davi I forgot about his pressing.That goes under the radar as well-I’m glad you brought it up. About space finding, I tend to think it will be more apparent and useful against sides that play more open football with a high line like Liverpool,for instance. So far we’ve played against teams that are really compact at the back. This aspect of his game was more apparent against Monaco.

        It will be interesting to see how he will performs alongside the neat passer that Zinchenko is. I can’t wait to see it,even though I fear their collective defensive nous is not great. I liked how we regained control of the game when Zinchenko came on. Just shows how influential he is in this team. Zinchenko might just unlock Havertz.

        1. Onyango you say we’ve played teams that are more compact at the back hence making kai ineffective. So the question then should be , why start him in the first place instead of – let’s say a more technically gifted Trossard? And bring him on later to see the games out?

          1. Kenya, my point was, he was ineffective with regards to his ability to exploit space but not necessarily the other attributes like pressing. As to why he was picked ahead of Trossard, I don’t know, only Arteta and his staff can answer that. If I was to speculate, I’d say Arteta sees Trossard as more of an alternative to Martinelli and not Havertz. The alternative to Havertz from what I’ve seen so far would be ESR. If not for the red card, I suspect Trossard would have come on for Martinelli at some point.

            1. Trossard is better at pressing then Kai. He is better at everything then him, except his height and that is not a skill. So if Kai is playing instead of Leo just to win a few more headers we should of buy Wembanyama. Arteta would surely turn his head to change the sport he is playing with few conversations.

        2. Yes, great point about zinchenko – hopefully his return will bring havertz into the game more.
          I thought Tomi did well at LB, but he is nowhere near as good as zinchenko with the ball at his feet.

    2. @ Onyango. Sorry your written up thesis on Havertz will not work. £65m has been paid for a player who supposedly has premier league experience and is on huge wages.


      For that fee he should be shaking things up in that team. A key influencer; ball holding skills; making things happen.

      The fact is that Havertz with due respect does not have the natural flair and talent – HE IS NOT A BALLER!

      All this talk of heading ability, hold up play, running into space etc are just lame excuses being made by people. It will only take a few losses for this nonsense to unravel. Look at those he is even keeping off the team. With Havertz there we will likely win nothing, especially without the ability and enterprise of Timber (his injury made my optimism drop a bit – he is a big miss)

      So lets stop all this Havertz needs time rubbish. I rest my case.

      1. I don’t know if you have played football at a decent level Jay, but in view of your comments, I suspect not.Perhaps you could tell us why Havertz has never been left out of the German first eleven during the past 4 years if he is as bad as you suggest?

      2. You have summarized it, he is not a baller

        Timber is a baller and didn’t need 20 games to prove it
        Rice just won motm, he didn’t need 20 games..

        A 65m player with two years premiership experience needs 20 games to show us what..

        I hope I will be wrong but I don’t see Havertz anything not now and not after30 games..

    3. Great points there Onyango. Not all those height, just 2 games, MA knows all concepts or thinking someone is praying Harverts fails as an arsenal player.
      Your points is the reason I felt he would have been introduced into the team gradually as they work on gelling in training

  15. For all people saying Arteta is playing Partey at RB to “fit” Havertz in the midfield, just look at the lineup in the last 2 games of the previous season against Forest and Wolves, Partey played RB. And no there wasn’t no Kai or Havertz in that lineup. He started doing it after Brighton devastated us 3-nil. Maybe that was the starting point for what we are seeing now.

    1. I totally agree with you. It’s so funny that fans think that Arteta will change his tactics just to accommodate Har. As if he building the team around him. We played the last two games of Last season using the same tactics. No one complain then. Now we have a new scapegoat.

  16. The data from the network

    Kai Havertz won more duels than any other player on the pitch against Nottingham Forest (8 duels) last week & Crystal Palace (8 duels) last night.

    1. Here is some data for you.
      Trossard have more assists in half season with Arsenal then Kai in his whole Premiership career.

  17. It’s humiliating to see Kai Havertz in Arteta’s line up everytime Arsenal plays. Arteta knows very well the guy is not where the rest of the team is in terms of ability, effort or contribution to the team. He’s a £65 mil. liability. Viera, ESR and Trossard are far ahead of the guy and yet they sit on the bench🙆🏽‍♂️. Fans around the world are giving Arteta all the necessary support and this is how he repays them.

    1. How do you know that Arteta “knows it very well the guy is not where the rest of the team in terms of ability, effort or contribution to the team”

      What’s your source?

  18. Good job JA wasn’t going when Bergkamp first signed for us as he was underwhelming in the first 7 or 8 games he played for us and would have got slaughtered on here…didn’t turn out too bad in the end though.

    1. Sorry my friend. There is a big difference. Bergkamp has flair, skill and ability. HAVERTZ DOES NOT. He cannot give what he doesn’t have, no matter how much time to integrate. You guys open your eyes for goodness sake. Why are so many making excuses for Havertz. Its baffling.

      1. Did you watch him when playing for Bayer Leverkusen? There’s the reason why Chelsea bought him but wasted his talent, because Chelsea have been a mess for several years.

        I believe that Arteta is capable og helping Havertz to be the best version of himself, and we should do whatever we can to make this a success story. COYG

    2. Different times so stupid to make judgement calls like this when the game has evolved so much!

      Want to compare striker tallies now vs 25 years ago? Irrelevant comparisons.

  19. For the perspective, I recommend people here watch the YouTube channel The Different Knock. He has elaborated on why the arsenal fans need to learn HOW to judge Kai Havertz. It’s quite insightful. Probably the most sensible and realist Arsenal Supporter I have found on the YouTube.

  20. No matter how hard some fans tried to defend Harvertz here. I have not seen why he was bought and his contributions so far. Pablo Viera is by far better than him. Am sure am not alone with this opinion. The most annoying thing is that he’s usually left on the pitch for 90mins even when it’s glaring that we are playing one man down while he’s on the pitch.
    I just hope Arteta is seeing what we are yet to see in him. Otherwise, the coach should listen to advise from the fan base and relegate him to the bench asap if we want to win matches without struggles.

    1. Why should the gaffer listen to the fans? He was hired to do a job, and he has professional assistant managers he can get advice from.

      If you don’t like the fact that he bought Havertz, then by all means whine online – but that won’t change anything. Arteta wanted him, convinced the Board to buy him, and will be judged by the Board and not you.

      By the way, we don’t have a player called Pablo Vieira.

  21. By the way, nobody is talking about how poor our corner kicks are? That seems to be a real issue, imo. We have good tall players now but our corner kicks suck. Nobody has a problem with that! And our current crop of players don’t like to cross the ball much and if they do they kinda suck. Scoring goals only one way is too predictable and last season we became too predictable towards the tail end of the season. This season we have the Arsenal to hurt teams in many different ways, if the players learn each others strength and not be one dimensional. And players need to trust Havertz when he is in the pockets. I have seen players just missing him altogether when he is in the spaces. They are not used to playing with him and the soon it starts to click, Havertz will shine no doubt.

    1. Daulat, we do have a good crosser of the ball in Tierney but unfortunately he’s been exiled from the team. Could kai benefit from Tierney playing? I don’t think we’ll ever know!

    2. Our wingers don’t cross the ball because they are playing on the weaker foot side of the field. Same goes with Salah unlike wingers of past generations Giggs and Beckham.

      1. I’m mostly talking about the corner kicks. Not one has been good so far. Why doesn’t Arteta train a proper set piece taker is something that baffles me really.


    Havertz is the pivot of the attack and the press whether as a target man or as a B2B attacking occupier.
    His position in the lineup ahead of Smith Rowe is well justified.
    Havertz offers versatility in addition to both the presence and intelligence of Xhaka in those central areas up the pitch.

    The lineup selection formation is actually 3223. Arteta is favoring double 6 and double 8.
    That is why Partey and Rice are the 2 base midfielders with Havertz and Odegaard the advanced midfielders.

    Arsenal’s 3223 system is quite good with the base midifield duo of Partey and Rice covering sidebacks perfectly, especially Partey. Same way the advanced midfield duo of Odegaard and Havertz drag to side midfield areas to unleash our strikers. With Havertz also able to go lead the attacking line in moments of the game when needs arise. This team is now more unpredictable tactically and will thus win more games.

    Magalhães can be a bit shaky and less assured on the ball. He is also not as versatile to pick up at several places across the backline and midfield.

    Last season our 2 base midfielders were Zinchenko and Partey, with Zinchenko covering and tucking in from left back. This season Arteta want to ensure that when the need arise to be more solid at the back, our fullbacks can also be proper defensive occupiers like a “Gvardiol, Akanji, Ake, Stones, or Walker”. And that’s why we are seeing 2 occupiers in the double 6. We will also see a double 6 of “a playmaker and an occupier”. A double 8 of “2 playmakers” or “a playmaker and an occupier”, or even “2 occupiers” in the double 8 if we need more physical presence in the attack.

    If you really want to understand the team starting lineup selection, see this breakdown –
    Offensive GK: Ramsdale, Raya
    Defensive Occupiers: Saliba, White, Mangalese*, Partey, Rice, Kiwior, Tomiyasu, Holding*
    Playmakers: Timbre, Zinchenko, Jorginho*, Odegaard, Trossard, Vieira, Smith Rowe
    Wingers/Strikers: Saka, Martinelli, Nelson, Jesus, Eddie, Folarin
    Attacking Occupier: Havertz, New Signing needed

    Arsenal still need at least one more attacking occupier, although Rice and Partey might be deployed in there, esp Rice as we saw during preseason.

    It will also be fine to upgrade on Magalhães and Holding to CBs who are more tactically fit for what Arteta is doing.
    Of a truth, it will be really tough to upgrade on Magalhães.
    Other top coaches will be dying to have him, but he will need to work on his technique and passing to really suite Arteta-ball.

    Jorginho’s lack of mobility is a serious concern. It will just be fine to let him go and we use his game time to improve the other playmakers.

    Arsenal should do the needful by clearing out Pepe, Cedric, Tierney, Tavares, Elneny, Lokonga, Jorginho, and Holding.
    Let’s use their funds to GET ARTETA THE PLAYERS HE NEEDS!!!

    1. Which player(s) does Arteta need again? Don’t mention CF cos if he needed one, he would have bought one instead of buying 2 midfielders when we had 7 in the team

    2. Havertz has had nearly 3 full seasons in the EPL, has played 93 games, scored 19 goals and 7 assists. Who considered this player warranted a transfer fee of £65m plus a reported salary in excess of £300k a week based on such poor stats? As far as I know we were the only big club bidding for him.

      Anyway the fact is he is now our player and learning a different system of play in a new club and certainly needs more than two matches before any judgement is passed. Personally, as I’ve said before, I think he is overpriced and overrated but I would be overjoyed if proven wrong just as I was in the case of Martin Odergaard who I didn’t think was physically suited to the EPL. However, only time will tell.

      1. @Andrew Elder:

        1. Havertz was a striker at Chelsea; he is a raumdeuter midfielder at Arsenal. The stats you are quoting are apples to oranges irrelevant.

        2. He is not earning as high a salary as you are reportedly stating.

        3. Real Madrid and Bayern Munchen had strong interest in acquiring his services, although they did not lodge actual bids.

  23. Havertz height is of not of much use in his position if he is not an effective box to box player. Having him defending corners when the coach has sacrificed Gabriel makes the advantage zero. Arteta wasted money that could have been used in buying a striker. We could have effectively used ESR and Trossard.

  24. Arteta is a very good coach but he’s also human (subject to mistakes). The pressure was on us after the red card cos instead of using pacey wingers to counter attack (that’s what most managers do when a man down), removed pacey players for people who will win aerial duels to give nobody.

  25. Arteta is happy with Kai’s movements. And it is important. But at the end of the day, movement means nothing if would can’t do anything effective with the ball. He can’t take on opponents, can’t give killer passes. Rarely wins his tackles. So he really can’t break opponents’ lines. With the ball, he passes sideways. For me that is the worrying thing, because that is the essence of class. Kai simply does not have what it takes to make it as a MF.
    I think the money could have been better spent on more direct players like Barella or Olmo. Kai might be a decent cover striker, don’t see any other role suited for him.

  26. Ain’t nobody gonna come out and say Havertz had a great start to his Arsenal career(still only 2 matches) but one thing gone unnoticed in all the for and against havertz argument is if the absence of jesus is impacting the system arteta set out to play and havertz influence.

    I won’t claim to understand Arteta brain but maybe the plan was for havertz to push forward while jesus drops deep to participate in the build up like he always does which create a vacant space up top. Nketiah while a decent player is nowhere near jesus in those aspects and prefers to stay in the centre.

    Also some are claiming Arteta changed his formation to shoehorn havertz, what if it was to not drop partey from the line up. I mean Rice is basically his replacement and playing in his position now.

    Arteta has been stubborn towards players before e.g Vieira instead of ESR or not dropping nketiah sooner but we didn’t see him formation to suit Vieira or nketiah(who are supposedly his favourite by some people here) last season.

    1. Partey plays RB since Zinchenco was unfit first game and only came back from injury yesterday. But normally Zinchenco will be our inverted full back and Partey will return to his position at midfield.

  27. Why blame Kai Harvertz for anything..Most fans seems to jump the GUN that we have an Insecure manager who happens to love buying the lackies of other clubs and demotes his better players down the line or even frustrates them out of the team just to make way for some of his very average players he loves..The DAMAGE CONTROL IS MIKEL ARTETA….this team is MIKEL ARTETA and SOME deluded fans who likes giving excuses for a manager who has been backed with faith and finances of this club, only for most of these funds to come to a waste and yet some of these fans will start making up illusionary reasons of why this same manger has continued to under perform and move at a slower pace or achieving any tangible success when compared to how much he has been backed..Let’s call a SPADE A SPADE FOR ONCE…HIS RECORDS FOR OVER 3 SEASONS IS THIS :

    1. Bullshit. Arteta turned the culture of the club around. He alienated freeloaders who did not want to make an effort, like Auba and Ozil, hotheads know-it-all’s like Gonduzi. His tactics is the main reason why we almost won the league last season. And his transfers were fine given our market position. Only this season we could really start choosing from the best players, last windows we had to but unproven talent and gambel with them, like Sambi and Tavarez, or buy rejects from top clubs. Some worked like Odde, others did not.

      1. Though I don’t agree with most of Chris’s perspectives. If Arteta’s tactics made us almost won the league, whose selection made us set record as the team that stayed longest on the table without winning the league.
        Summary, if Arteta deserves praise for the success, he shouldn’t be excued from failure

    2. Whew. Some real bitterness there. Hope you had a tall glass of water after typing that rant – Gawd knows you needed it!

      The basic thing is that if you don’t like the culture at Arsenal, you can freely move to support another club, perhaps until Arteta is gone. Most of what you typed [especially in caps] is senseless drivel.

  28. Seems like nobody really cares what exactly MA is doing/trying; and what the vision and plan he has in mind.

    All I hear is, “I don’t want”, “I don’t like”, “I think”… did you guys ask MA what he is looking for?

    Having Kai to adapt while we are getting the maximum points is the best scenario that we can have. It is not like we are sacrificing our points/results to accommodate anyone.

    1. Having Kai to adapt while we are luckily getting the maximum points, You meant to say (cos both games had nervy endings)
      Except you are desperate, training is where you make a player adapt to your style cos ‘no one learns war at warfront’

      1. He has adapted already all that is left is a gameplay plan that brings the spotlight on him just like it has been for saka,martinelli,odegaard,jesus,xhaka and all our players as you should’ve noticed such pattern last season with no one scoring a hat-trick, if you know you know.

      2. Did you? I did not.

        Why would I being nervous for random/odd counter attack (Forest) and playing with 10 men against Palace (not anybody’s fault)?

        Training is one thing, playing against real opponents is another.
        Everyday you play “against” the same set of players, and you have routines and habits for your teammates to track, and vice versa.
        Against real opponents, especially with full body contact and intensity, is totally different.

        At practice, you can makes everything perfect but when the real game is on, probably you cannot make one.

        Do you have real life competitive sports experience?

        1. Add to that random counter attack are aimless crosses over the bar or straight to ramsdale 😊, never for once did I thought we were gonna concede.

  29. Haverz has so far only proved the doubters (that he wasn’t a good buy) right. Personally i feel he is in at the expense of players like ESR and i expect him to perform better than i think ESR would. When he is being treated like an undroppable. I for one want this bloke to show something but he isnt. Rice has hit the ground running, Timber had hit the ground running. Haverz is no bloody scapegoat as idiots have put, he isnt performing. IF he does, absolutely GREAT but he is a passenger and Arteta is keeping him in at the expense of ESR and even Trossard would do a better job and that for me is wrong. Step up or get him out!!!!!!

  30. Havertz is only about as useful as a parachute made of gold – valued high despite having no benefits and totally impractical at use. The only thing he has over trossard is height, which he could use for goalscoring, but simply doesn’t get into the right position. I understand having martinelli over trossard but starting Havertz in the Premier league over possibly one of our best recent signings? Outrageous. Trossard is a versatile player with many goalscoring and creative capabilities (far superior to Havertz who is as useful as a wooden log) yet gets no game time in that creative role which he is so devastating in.

    Honestly, arteta simply needs to get his personal affairs out of the way, get a grip and finally play the men who deserve game time, not the phoneys who we overpaid for and have a love story with the manager.

  31. The reason Gabriel sits out is because Arteta puts in an extra man in midfield with possession. That allows Rice to occupy the attacking 8 role on the left and in return Kai Havertz plays a free role. Crystal Palace are no slug and they only lost to Man City at home while Roy Hodgson in charge. Ever wondered why Arsenal were so dominant until the red card. There’s extra player to press and win possession up front and bamboozle the opponents defence all the time. That’s why Nketiah playing so well. Because Kai Havertz is so good at interpreting space, he moves around like a silent killer. Playing such tactic against Forest was genius but against Palace, it was ballsy. That’s our manager, Mikel Arteta.

  32. One problem the Havertz transfer will create (at least in my view) is that Arteta is going to bend over backwards trying to prove Havertz is a success at Arsenal, possibly to the detriment of other team members!!!!

  33. If you want to understand the better of kai go to rewatch the match. When your pressure is normal. He gave us more effect in pressing, two attacking striker. Two number10 with capt..

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