My fellow VAR frustrated Gooners, I have become well known among JA regulars as being firmly against the introduction of VAR, until it could become FULLY automated, without the need for a second VAR ref overriding the pitch ref’s decisions.
I always saw that as a destructive thing to do, to thus undermine the ref while at the same time, and hypocritically, the authorities were urging players, managers and fans to give MORE respect to the pitch ref.
It was a case of “do as we say, but NOT AS WE PRACTICE”! Foolish, short sighted and bound to fail, as it has!
However, to describe myself as a realist, as I DO, while ignoring the undoubted fact that those such as I have, LOST the argument against VAR, would be continued foolishness and that is not my way.
So, albeit with reluctance, I here offer some suggestions that would, IMO, at least soften the harm done to our game by the fact VAR (ugh!!) is here to stay.
By far the most contentious part of VAR, apart from the extraordinarily long time it takes mere humans (rather than “AI”) to draw lines for offsides, is the overturning of a second VAR ref, over the original decision given by the actual ref.
So many of those overturned decisions are SUBJECTIVE (MEANING MERE OPINIONS) rather than provable, as offside at least is. As also are “in OR out of the penalty area” for fouls too.
IF the authorities at least had the nous to limit the scope of VAR and get rid of all subjective second opinions, it would be a big step forward and stop so many long-lasting arguments against the validity of that SUBJECTIVE overturning.
YES, we all know that in theory, the pitch ref can stick with his original decision when called to the screen. But IN REALITY, that has happened almost never, as pitch ref’s are running scared of VAR refs. Ridiculous of course but nevertheless true.
I have long contended that to routinely EXPECT AND DEMAND pitch refs get every decision right, is unrealistic and not what any mere humans are capable of doing.
I have posted, long and fruitlessly on JA that to expect refs to be perfect, while at the same time knowing that all other people involved in the game will always make mistakes, is to ignore reality. And I am an arch REALIST!
But that is yet another battle I have lost! Fans still routinely accuse refs of being biased against their team. Of cheating, in fact! Such fan hypocrisy, when all fans, me included, are biased.
And amazingly, you may ask, how is this bias even possible, when fans of ALL teams accuse refs of bias. I despair often, for the blatant LACK OF FAIRNESS IN SUCH BASE accusations.
Then if VAR stopped interfering when a ref gave or refused a penalty, EXCEPT for when the incident was INSIDE OR OUTSIDE the box, which would halt a lot of the weekly rows that go on in most games and for ages afterward, in fan sites etc.
Next suggestion is for VAR to never challenge the pitch ref’s decision of handball – which all realists know should now be called ball to hand – as the old perfectly workable hand to ball rule was stupidly changed to cause the regular monstrous rows it now causes.
What would be ideal, obviously, is for IFAB (the game’s “law” makers) to revert to the way handball USED TO WORK SO WELL, before the idiotic change in interpretation which so regularly RUINS games nowadays.
But IFAB are interminably stupid as well as corrupt, and to expect a sensible change simply won’t happen. So, the next best solution is for at least no VAR reinterpretations against the ref’s decision.
IF ONLY – though I despair of it ever happening – my suggestions were adopted, IMO the majority of VAR disputes would disappear, and what is left, although still not MY desired state of being, would IMPROVE the all-important fan harmony, and heal to some extent the general divisiveness.
I would really value your own thoughts please.
COYG
Jon Fox
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Instead of the game becoming even more farcical (we’ll soon be at 20 mins stoppage time every game 🤣), why not go back to the previous system of no VAR which had less controversy?
Since the introduction of VAR, we’ve seen the worst ever decisions being made!
Jen You and I are sadly almost alone in being realists.
VAR is an abomination that ruins football enjoyment across the PREM AND DOES IT WEEKLY
VAR doesnt intervene. VAR doesnt challenge. The people who operate VAR bring up a matter for the ref’s attention.
So they are the same as linesmen, who do the same. A linesman has a flag and nowadays also a microphone as their technology. A VAR person has a microphone and some video replay stuff. The officials do the same things, they notice stuff that they mention to the ref and VAR ppl are just doing what linesmen have always done, but with different tech.
The subjective rules you mentioned are the problem, not the tech. All the tech does is make sure ppl see what happened so that the subjective judgement can at least be in full possession of the facts – as far as is possible.
The handball rule change you mentioned is a rules problem. If you dont like that rule then the right thing to do is to campaign to have the rule changed.
I wouldn’t have put it better.
Spot on and so clear in your reply.
Those advocating to go backwards and ban VAR are ignoring the FACT that the PGMOL want it to stay and they have said how, by using this technology, major decisions have improved to the tune of over 99%.
The handball rule is ridiculous of course, bur officials are only following the rules… not var rules but the governing bodies rules.
The same goes for this stupid offside rule that. means linesmen can’t put their flags up until the passage of play has finished – what utter BS that is as well!!
As for too much extra time, fans go to watch ninety minutes of football and pay through the nose for the privilege.
The world cup proved just how much time is lost due to ALL teams wasting time – let these overpaid, pampered players do an honest 90 minutes, instead of cheating the fans!
Agree with you – your point on the subjectivity of the rules is exactly right and why it will never be possible to get calls 100% correct, or for the game to be completely uncontroversial. The best they can do is to ensure as few decisions as possible are not blatantly wrong, and var has undoubtedly improved things from that perspective imo.
One thing I’d add is that the game is so fast now, and refs simply can’t always be in the optimal position so I think they like the fact they have a “safety net” for the big decisions (which would go to show their primary concern is making correct decisions, not being “in charge”). I also think a lot of the on-field decisions would have been different in recent seasons if they didn’t have that safety net.
VAR stand for Video Assistant Referee so it actually does include the people making the decisions just a FYI
Who said it doesnt include the people?
If you’re referring to the first line of my post I was mainly talking about words like “challenge” that were used in the article. They don’t challenge the ref’s decision they just draw attention to events, sometimes things he hasn’t even seen (so he couldn’t make a decision about them).
They make a decision about offside themselves (seems a bad process though to my mind – they should put it up on the big screen for all to see and talk to the ref so he can get to his own decision, with their input) – but for the subjective stuff like handball they put it up on a monitor for him to see and for him to decide. It’s not a “challenge” to the ref’s decision or authority.
When they put it up on the monitor, they are not “interfering”, they are trying to help by letting him see what actually happened from lots of angles and speeds.
NEUTRAL What you claim is NOT true. VAR, in practice, overules the ref almost 100% of the times, once he is called to the screen. Refs are often shown to have been right all along when they go to the screen but virtually NEVER stay true to their original decision, to the detriment of fans enjoyment of games.
And I happen to passionately believe PAYING FANS ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT CONSIDERATION IN FOOTBALL, BY FAR!
All players and managers are replaceable , but without FANS, football soon dies!
Linesmen are simply true assistants to the ref and he is not intimidated by them as he is by VAR.
THAT makes a masive difference between the two very different things you mention.
What you describe is NOT “overruling”.
You should know that the ref has the final decision.
If he doesnt use it when he is right – which is the scenario you brought up – then it is just another example of officials being bad in the EPL. Like everyone else realises except you.
And you kinda made that intimidated thing up anyway. You have no idea why they make the wrong decisions. You cant read their minds any more than anyone else.
Just your latest straw to clutch at. Gets boring man, let it go. You’re dead wrong, just get off that hobby horse.
OBVOUSLY I DO know that he has thr final decison and said so, if you had bothered to read my post properly!
I also said that virtually NO pitch ref has ever stuck to his original call , after being called to the screen.
Have you never thought WHY that is??!!
I also said that VAR officials intimidate the ref, as four years experience of VAR PROVES.
Please at least TRY to think beyond mere “BASE ONE thinking” when debating ,if you want a serious and cerebral debate , next time.
And it is my considered opinion, as a fan following footballand Arsenal since 1958, that refs ARE intimidated and so I DONT APPRECIATE YOUR JUVENILE PERSONAL RUDENESS TO ME!!
The reason a referee changes his mind Jon, is because the var technology has shown him that his decision was incorrect.
Nothing to do with being “terrified” and the PGMOL have backed the use of VAR up.
Ok Ken ! Then please answer this pertinent question, if you willplease. Many times. in progs such as MotD(AND OTHER PROGS ABOUT FOOTBALL) when Lineker and his pundits in the studio , have also has lots of time to study VAR decisions, when the ref has agreed to overturn his deci,sion but Lineker and co have said loud andlong, very many times, that VAR was incorrect and OUGHT NOT to have intefered and that those same football people at MotD, have has hours by then to study again and again incidents on Slo Mo, still concluded that the ref OUGHT to have stuck with his oroginal decision , enen thoug he did not.
Why do you think Lineker and co do that so VERY REGULARLY?
Do you perhaps simply think Lineker and co do not know football OR could it just be, that your one size fits all theory is incorrect!!??
The FACT that refs virtually NEVER ever stick to their original decsion, but almost ALWAYS givei n to VAR, even when it is demonstrably proven wrong and ought NOT to have intefered at all, PROVES that VAR officials intimidate refs!
Copy-pasted for you from your first post:
“VAR, in practice, overules the ref almost 100% of the times, once he is called to the screen”
I repeat yet again: You used the word “overrules”. It has a clear meaning. A man who has the final decision cannot be overruled. It is that simple.
Already said that but you have to squirm around trying to wriggle off the hook.
4 years of “experience”? Yours? You get to decide what it proves? Because your view doesn’t prove anything. You don’t know why they changed their mind.
Was there a survey of refs asking why they changed their mind? No. Just you claiming some proof that doesn’t exist.
Likely and obvious reason is they just realised their first decision was wrong. Why is it obvious? Because that’s the reason VAR flags it up. If VAR think the call was right then they have nothing to say, do they? That’s 100% obvious to anyone who isn’t looking for a straw to clutch.
So what I wrote is not rudeness. It is an opinion based on what you write. Maybe you should stop and think about it. But you won’t. You’ll keep on and on 🙄
Neutral, I suggest vyou read my ost inreply to ken times at 4.58, just above and I ask YOU to reply with considered thought as to WHY the refs virtually NEVER stay with their original decision, when purely by the lw of averages acroos four years, it would be reasonable to EXPECT a goodly number would stick to their original decision, IF only your theory were correct.
Pleas read my WHOLE post carefully ,ignoring nothing and seriously answering my pertinent question posed to KEN.
IT APPLIES TO YOU TOO.
The problem is human error because Var is being used by a human.If Var was completely automated then the correct decision would be pointed out to the ref.
PRECISELY MY WHOLE POINT! Finally, someone who sees the point I made and answered it correctly.
One thing I can say about VAR is that it doesn’t seem to be a big issue in most competitions like it is in the EPL. I’m sure most fans can agree that in virtually all the Champions League games we’ve played this season,there were hardly any VAR related complaints. The same can be said for the World Cup, Continental Cups and other leagues. Consistency is seriously lacking in the application of this tool in the EPL compared to elsewhere.
Which is a shame because EPL is supposed to be “the best league in the world” and you’d expect that the officiating would be the best in the world as well-doesn’t seem to be the case.
It’s not supposed to be, it is the best league in the world.
I have been following the EPL for 26 years and the substandard refereeing has been there from the first game I saw to this day.
If it’s not corruption I don’t know what it is.
Onyango, I’ve sent in an article about var being incorrectly used in Belgium and what followed – your comments on that would be appreciated, if it’s printed.
Thanks Ken,I’ll check it out
That’s an interesting point Onyango, I hadnt seen that mentioned before.
A lot of ppl make the very good point that other sports have no problems with it (and they are right) but if other competitions in football also do better then it must be the EPL process or the quality of the officials. Or both.
I don’t see much of it used in other competitions but if it doesnt get the same controversy then it tells its own story, as you say.
Have been watching some of AFCON
Hardly a moan or a groan in sight
Based on what I’ve seen of the hosts v Senegal, the Prem would do well to follow their example.
Yes VAR is here to stay and why shouldn’t it, abandoning VAR now would be like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Using VAR was found to increase referring decision accuracy from 92 to over 98 %, this indeed is impressive and will poor cold water on any suggestion to discontinue.
What the process needs is better leadership, and competent and unbiased officials that are prepared to used the technology properly.
I disagree with the idea, Jon – I think the penalty checks are necessary to give some help to referees who I don’t think can reasonably be expected to keep up with the game to the extent needed to make all of these calls accurately – however, I really enjoyed reading your thoughts in this article. I think it will get better in the future, likely with ai, as you say – I just think this iteration is a far better situation than we had before (without var) – I think people forget how bad it was when refs made calls without any help.
Whenever i see people criticising VAR i mostly say this:
Remember that disgusting act of cheating by bamford last season what would have gotten gabriel sent off and leeds a stoppage time penalty. Who stopped that? Oh yeah Var. All the play-actings have mostly stopped as they know var will catch them.
Remember the diving pandemic we had before var was introduced.
Whine about var taking too much time and killing the excitement when a goal cause var might cancel it. I say would you rather
a wrongful decision ruin the whole game and your wkend with it.
Var is terrible and makes so many errors nah it just exposes how incompetent the referee operating it are. If they can’t get a decision right with the use of many angles and replay how the hell do they get any right when they are on the pitch. Worse the liverpool offside goal fiasco showed they lack basic communication skills.
Var isn’t perfect and need fixing yes but it’s mostly because of the incompetent people in charge of it.
Yep. The liverpool thing showed comms skills as a major problem. Bunch of ppl grunting and muttering random stuff.
No wonder they got in the air traffic controllers and pilots to show them how to do it. If they can communicate to avoid planes colliding in mid air those officials should be able to do something as easy as applying the rules of a game.
tbf I got the feeling from listening to those ppl that they were not capable of learning it though. You can’t polish a 💩. Get some new ppl in, train em up.
The whole refeereeing body needs an overhaul from top to bottom.
“If they can’t get a decision right with the use of many angles and replay how the hell do they get any right when they are on the pitch”
I will say this statement put the whole debate to rest.
Well the only simple change to Var we need is to change the incompetent referees with better one. There must be a reason why barely english ref gets called for big tournaments anymore.
Why should we have mostly british ref? if we can attract the best players in the world surely we should be able to attract the best referees.
Are you watching the AFcon, Jon? One thing that tournament has taught me that it’s not VAR that is the problem, it’s those guys interpreting it. AFcon is into the QFs and not one controversy. If AFcon can do it, why can’t the most watched league in the world do it?
Hadn’t realised you had posted your AFCON thoughts
Totally agree
I have not watched more than a tiny few minutes of the AFCON and do not enjoy watching or even following international football.
I used too enjoy it many years ago, but it is mostly slow, boring, tedious and far inferior to our Prem, which is my MAIN football passion, along with FA cups and CL You8 point on VAR is truew ands is thrreason WHY I want AI with no directv human interplay between humana running it and the pitch ref.
I am clearlyu in a smal minority who find that VAR undermined the pitch refs and terrifies them into not giving clear decisions.
Now that VAR is here, the fact that practicalLy NO refs at all in the four years, have stayed with their original decision after being called to the screen, shows how much it has damaged normal refereeing.
And I TOTALLY BELIEVE IN backing refs , not routinely calling them cheats ,. whic is a gross and wicked lie and I BELIEVE THEY SHOULD ALWAYS BE BACKED BY IS ALL. But they are not ! This is a disgrace IMO.
But depressingly, I am almost alone in thinking as I do.
Huge double SIGH!!!
Jon, has it occurred to you that referees don’t stick to their original decision, simply because the technology has shown they were wrong?
Or had this simple explanation passed you by?
It seems the PGMOL and it’s members are pleased with the fact that the technology has improved the correct decision making and, despite you saying they are “terrified” are more than happy to be corrected. Surely, that is more important than getting excited over a wrong decision?
Yes KEN! As a lifelong student of the game and of how humans behave, as well as being an accomplished thinker, I have of course, considered lots of possible reason why refs do NOT stay true to their original decision.
And my well considered conclusion is the one that I HAVE GIVEN VERY MANY TIMES but which you would rather be “sarky” about than accept that I SIMPLY HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION FROM YOU
. You do personal rudeness very well , esp coming from a man who constantly criticises ME for doing it. A case of the bitter well and truly bitten, in your case, I suggest.
HAS IT NOT OCCURRED YOU KEN, THAT IN FOUR LONG YEARS OF VAR, surely , IF your theory were correct, that a goodly number of pitch refs would have, by now, stuck to their ORIGINAL DECISION, PURELY BY THE LAW OF AVERAGES, if intimidation by VAR refs were NOT present.
I HAVE THOUGHT long and hard about that very fact and then after much deep thought, have concluded as I HAVE .
I would hope that a little more respect for my intellect and fewer deliberately pointless personally rude criticisms, esp given OUR mature ages, would aid our online friendship a great deal KEN!
Jon, why is it, when anyone comes forward with an explanation or example that contradicts your opinion, the capital letters flourish and said persons ability to think is compared to yours?
Please explain to me the “lots of possible reasons” why a referee would change their minds, apart from being shown their original decision was incorrect, or they missed something in the build up play, all of which var technology can show them?
I have NEVER heard of or seen a referee being “terrified” in fact, they seem more than happy to cancel out a mistake on their part be it a goal or red card.
If, as you suggest, they were / are terrified, why has their governing body stated that they are happy with VAR technology and want it to continue?
I don’t know why you want to make it personal, as I’m asking you a simple question that seems to be missing in your thought procedure as to why referees change their minds when called to check a incident.
Oh DEAR KEN! How many more times nee I oncd again explain, in words easy to understand, that capitalsl are simply EMPHASIS, just as mono syllablic people like the much younger Wayne Rooner never used , til he gained some social and people skills,and learned how to EMPHASISE points he wished dto make and drop that boring monotone he USED to speak in.
In real life, all natural speakers , presenters and actors and those who REALLY KNOW how to speak interestingly, use EMPHASIS. I hope you NEVER need to ask this question EVER AGAIN KEN. .
I have of couse told you and others too, MANY times before and it becomes TEDIOUS, by constantly needing to repeat it.
Your second point was “lots of reasons,” so here goes:
First reason is as I have many times said, that refs are intimidated by being scared to go against VAR, as refs assume VAR will have the tech to prove them wrong and often it does do.
But many times too, VAR is merely using subjective judgement, as I said in my article and subjective judgements are arguable, as they often are, long and loud on TV and radio football progs.
I remind you that my article, albeit reluctantly ACCEPTED the basic, almost certain likelihood that VAR is here to stay. And so I SUGGESTED that all SUBJECTIVE calls now be ceased by VAR.
Somewhret predictably , THAT point has been almost entirely ignored and overlooked by those defending VAR as it is. Refs are also subject to thosebeing scared to go against their “bosses” meaning PGMOL and esp Howard Webb esp, who has the power to demote,suspend or sack them, as he has doneon occasions if he thinks they are standing up against VAR. Many ex refs,. even CLATTENBERG, have openly stated they would rathe not have VAR as it spoils fan enjoyment, which it undountedfly DOES!
You will once again ignore ALL my points and repeat the boringly often ONLY reason you think refs COULD stand up to VAR – except that your point, which I of course understand and which DOES have validity on some occasions but NOT at others- is your ONE SIZE FITS ALL argument . And in life, as in football and VAR, one size ,palpably NEVER DOES FIT ALL!
Thirdly you mention “their governing body”, meaning PGMOL and Webb, presumbly. PGMO has an obviously vested interest in claiming harmony and it is not a disinterested body and is partial So I do not believe it or what it claims
Finally Ken, my piece attempted to find COMMON GROUND among pro and anti VAR fans .That aim seems to have been entirely ignored , predictable so, as my article in depressing reality actually predicted. SIGH!
I have no more to add and no longer am prepared to bang my intelligent brain against a brick wall of inability and worse still, UNWILLINGNESS from pro VAR fans, to really THINK!
So tactic number 9032 is it? Write the same old stuff in a post so long and boring that everyone glazes over and you get the last word. 💤💤💤
Every point in that pile of ManU was already torn to shreds before.
Ken is right. Your capitals thing is shouty. I hope he points it out every time you do it.
Nothing to see here. Already answered and shown up for what it is.
VAR flags up things that they think the ref got wrong.
VAR has the advantage of seeing replays.
So if VAR is doing things right then you expect the ref to only be bothered with stuff he probably got wrong the first time.
And if the ref were being intimidated then it’s bad performance by EPL refs. Other competitions and other sports don’t have that problem, just the EPL.
That’s already been said to you. But you just ignore everyone else’s points and keep on and on with the non-logical stuff. 💤💤💤
No cigar.
Kobin (and Onyango above) made a really good point. Football doesn’t have a problem with VAR, it’s only in the EPL.
AFCON is fine, CL is fine, just EPL has a problem so it seems obvious to think it must be a problem with the performance of the EPL officials.
But you tried to slide off that by making it seem like it doesn’t count just because you’re not interested in those competitions 🤣Weak.
Bottom line here is that you are never going to accept VAR no matter what people say to you. Your mind is closed.
What a coincidence, esp about your last paragraph as I was about to say exactly the very same about your mind. Spooky!
Talk about anything but the AFCON point then. 🤣🤣
How can I talk with any sense about something, AFCON, that I do NOT WATCH?
I DID SAY THAT IN A POST ON HERE!
Slippery.
You don’t need to watch it to know the VAR issues are gone.
The point they made would interest any OPEN MIND.
That enough EMPHASIS for YOU?
So after all of the above, what was this article all about then?
Get VAR off the table for anything subjective and you’ve relegated it to the status of Hawkeye, just doing line calls. Ball in, ball out? Was it over the line?
If that happens then VAR is as good as dead.
So all in all this was just another cunning plan worthy of Baldrick himself. Nothing to see here. Same old.