I occasionally will write about a football issue not involving Arsenal if I think it’s worthwhile. In reality a Premiere League club representing ‘the best league on earth’ releasing a statement implying corruption is crucial to all those who want to protect the sport. More importantly, those in power’s response to the accusation.
As I submit this, I keep waiting for Nottingham Forest to clarify themselves by admitting they have acted on emotion, that their actions were a frustrating reaction to the disappointment of a 2-0 defeat to a relegation rival.
Anyone who is aware of the track record of their owner will know a backtrack is unlikely but at the very least his legal team will go into damage control mode, pointing out that the word cheat and conspiracy hasn’t been used. Implied but not used ….
“Three extremely poor decisions — three penalties not given — which we simply cannot accept.
“We warned the PGMOL that the VAR is a Luton fan before the game, but they didn’t change him. Our patience has been tested multiple times.
“NFFC will now consider its options.”
That was posted on the club’s official X account approx. 5 mins after the final whistle at Goodison Park.
Managers don’t like speaking to the media directly after a game due to emotions being high. They are contractually obliged too though. This public statement though was a choice authorized by the City Ground.
This would not have been uploaded without the approval of someone in power.
Having watched the game, yes there were incidents where Forest should have had a penalty, but I have seen worse decisions.
All fan bases can relate. We have all had periods where we believe big decisions go against us. Blinded by their love of the badge, some even think they get harshly treated more than others, that they are so unique people who are sat in offices throwing darts at your crest. Whisper it quietly, no one is that special!
Has Forest been victims of bad officiating?
Yes?
Have Arsenal? Of course,
Liverpool? 100 percent
Wolves? Without a doubt
I don’t think Coventry’s spot kick was a handball in the FA Cup?
Does that mean there was an agenda against Man United?
In reality you can also recall a moment when your team benefitted from a dodgy call?
The FA don’t need letters written to them to be told referring is poor in England and has been for decades. VAR was brought in to fix ‘obvious errors’ but the consistency of when it’s used remains inconsistent.
There is a massive difference between someone being terrible at their job and there being a conspiracy. That’s what is wrong with this statement. Forrest don’t want to suggest how men and women can improve at officiating, they are saying officials are walking onto the pitch with a bias, an agenda, a premeditated thought on who they want to win.
Without any evidence!!!!!
In a perfect world, should so many wrong decisions be made?
Of course not. But we don’t live in a perfect world. Me or you make mistakes at our job. The majority of us don’t work in a business worth millions granted, but as long as humans are involved, errors will happen.
Players cheat every game. Type in on YouTube Ben White Vs Brighton. Don’t remember a statement about his play acting?
Six Prem Owners tried to break clubs away from the pyramid to form their own competition. Is that worse than not getting a pen?
We have had two EPL players recently serve bans for gambling because they broke rules.
Is that no worse than escaping a card?
Worse off, we have two clubs this season who have had points taken away from them for openly breaking FFP rules.
One of them?
You guessed it!
The irony that Evangelos Marinakis has the audacity to question the integrity of the competition when the club he runs has been sanctioned for breaking FFP rules.
Like Everton, they were being told by the league they had crossed the threshold of what they could spend, but chose to keep spending anyway. They acted arrogantly thinking their worst-case scenario was a fine, because the PL wouldn’t have the gumption to resort to points deductions. Their appeal is based on wanting leniency.
So, to clarify, when refs are incompetent Forest want the strongest possible action yet to expect the same association to go easy on them.
We don’t know if there is a conspiracy against Forrest, we await evidence (they have none), but we do know Forrest has cheated.
Run by a man worth 2.5 billion they have the resources to compete. The ironic truth is that no one has told Mr. Marinakis.
His club is 17th because he couldn’t do his job properly.
Never forget this!
Forest earned another 4 points. That would have put them 5 points above Luton. The only reason they are not because he and his staff didn’t do their job properly.
Forest haven’t lost 4 points because of VAR or based on which team a ref supports they did it based on themselves and their own poor recruitment.
Of course, though, we live in a society where instead of taking accountability we blame everyone else.
What a shame one of the most famous names in the UK has acted this way. For decades, one of the biggest institutions to not be in the top flight, promotion was meant to be a return to where the proud city belongs.
They finally arrived at the big dance and acted rudely ever since, openly just wanting to take. Everybody wants them to leave the party, but they are willing to do whatever it takes to stay, not caring what others think. Zero self-respect.
Instead, they have disgraced themselves, literally reflecting a generation.
How many children are educated to jump onto social media, with seconds sharing their opinions to the world no matter the credibility. Blaming everyone else for their short comings
A Billionaire businessman did that!
Not being able to accept a loss and the financial implications, his club made excuses, not once suggesting the Toffees were the better side.
A failure to explain what that had to do with a failure to defend two goals against a poor Everton side.
I would expect this reasoning for a defeat from my mate in the pub or a YouTuber. Not a professional football club.
I refuse to disect each incident involving Ashley Young because that gives credibility to what Forrest shamefully is attempting to do.
This week it will be decided if they get any points back. What better way to do this than pressure the League into claiming they are being discriminated against.
The League is weak enough to do that.
They should throw the book at Forest.
Anyone who believes the game is fixed – don’t watch it!
Once we are starting to imply officials are cheating and corrupt without evidence the law makers need to act.
I said the same when Arsenal and Liverpool wrote a letter crying like little children. What was the point but at least they insisted ‘working with Howard Webb’ to improve standards.
Yet when Forrest threatens to ‘consider its options‘, the only options should now be considering what punishment they should get for this slander.
Dan
Forest’s official announcement certainly shows a lack of professionalism but we are talking about a club under immense pressure too. A small club (with a big history) deducted points, whilst a big RICH like City manage to avoid the same treatment? It’s a knee-jerk reaction to what looks like the usual VAR crap-fest. To me VAR is causing more issues than it fixes. Just look at the game between Manure and Coventry. You just cannot celebrate a goal as happens because you know somewhere (miles away from the game) is scrutinizing it before it’s officially awarded. It’s killing the spirit and the enjoyment of the modern game. I just don’t think VAR should be used to its current extent. Only for goal line, corner decisions and bad tackles in my opinion. The rest should be left to the refs decision IMO. As for the penalty appeals for Forest? Two were not penalties but the last one was IMO. Like I said, VAR is just killing the game for me. It’s bringing the worst out of situations that just require common sense. The old game of football just flowed better before the introduction of this technical mess!
Nothing wrong with VAR, works almost perfectly in other sports. The problem is those controlling it are inconsistent and quite often incompetent. It’s been proven to work in sports with a lot less funding.
So why does it not work in football? Is there corruption? Is there bias? Is it that its new and will take some time to implement properly? Could be any of those or more.
I think the best way to get VAR to work in the short term is to outsource it, get officials in from other countries (where it works) to assist the current officiating teams – this would massively reduce claims of bias/corruption due to less vested interest. The PL can easily afford it, and during this period the FA can properly train and qualify people to use it in the domestic game.
I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT IT OBVIOUS WHY IT DOES NOT WORK IN FOOTBALL!
You are trying to compare football, in which many of the decisions are subjective, with other sports where far fewer are subjective.
THAT is ONE obvious reason why there will always be a problem of subjectivity in decisions in football.
It is very easy to see that plain distinction between football and such as cricket, tennis, even rugby, where decisions are more black or white, with far fewer shades of grey.
Unless one compares like with like, comparsions are worthless and pointless. REALITY!
Unless, of course Jon, the officials in those sports where VAR is used correctly, actually know the rules (which they do) apply them in a consistent way (which they do) don’t forget to draw the appropriate lines (which they don’t) and don’t follow the rules in order to cover for a colleague (which the don’t).
That is the REALITY of the matter, along with the FACT that the PGMOL members want var, as it has improved their decision making, despite the cock ups like that awful tackle on Tomiyasu last night, that should have seen a red card.
Tell me, what IS SO HARD about following the rule book in EVERY game?
So there defense for cheating is others have as well ?
Even if you go by that principle , like 17 clubs have not broke rules
No, I’m not condoning it. My point is, is you have other clubs being punished for FFP (Everton and Forest) and City are able to avoid the same punishment by not co-operating. It puts additional pressure on clubs that are already fighting to stay in the EPL. Add to that the added pressure of simple mistakes made by officials. It’s no wonder there is so much anger. That is my point. And I must reiterate, I am not in agreement about the way Forest went about things.
I totally agree with the Forest accusations. I mean how many ‘mistakes’, yes mistakes as Howard Webb admitted the 3rd incident should have been a penalty.
Personally i think a lot of associations are part of a broader BETTING SYNDICATE that manipulates results. The proof is staring us in the face with all the so called mistakes which refs sometimes admit to due the undeniable video evidence. The few fans or officials who refute this are ignorant or worse benefits from it.
Certainly you can justifiably claim that mistakes have been made.
However, these are not proof of a syndicate and the suggestion that mistakes are evidence does not make sense.
All that said
Taylor and Attwell do have form 🙂
One look at Attwell and his various performances, being dropped, not looking at on field calls correctly. While Forest may not have called out the “fan” card he is unfit to officiate at the top level.
The team name is Nottingham FOREST, not FORREST. You have used both spelling variants, but only one applies to a team who are upset with refereeing decisions.
The competition is between clubs, and to that degree clubs should be able to have an opinion on who they believe should adjudicate individual games in which they involved….and those opinions should be respected no matter how fanciful others may think they are.
FOREST advised PGMOL in advance of the game of their concerns. Those concerns were (apparently) not respected. That is the issue I think ALL clubs (as well as the Premier League big wigs) should be concerned about – not deflecting by nit picking on the ownership of a member club as you appear be doing.
Forest’s original accusation / X tweet has since been rescinded and toned down by more recent responses saying they were in no way implying bias by the Luton supporting ref.
Having said that, their first response immediately after the game was knee jerk, ill advised and inflammatory. They are of course responsible for their own demise by openly breaking FFP/ PRS rules.
There’s a lot of “what about this, what about that” in the article and I think the idea about forest holding conspiracy theories is reading more into their statement than is actually there.
On the point that Nottingham forest had 3 strong claims for a penalty ignored, I think they have every right to make a statement. I thought two of them were absolute certain penalties, so for them to be completely ignored is strange and extremely frustrating.
I think the phrasing of the var ref being a Luton fan is incindiary, but they didn’t outright state that was the reason for the poor decisions. If it’s true they had said this prior to the match, it’s understandable they’d make it public now. I don’t like it, but it makes sense and i don’t think they were wrong to make that point.
They never made any general claims about refs being against them, at least none I’ve seen – it’s confined to this one match – so I don’t read more into it than that
“A failure to explain what that had to do with a failure to defend two goals against a poor Everton side.” Forest are not one of the top sides who can be expected to keep clean sheets in every game and imperfections are normal – all teams make mistakes, but when things you can’t control go against you (things you’re relying on others to control), you have no hope.
“what punishment they should get for this slander”
It’s only slander if they’ve lied – from what was said, the only area of contention is whether the var ref is a Luton fan, and whether forest informed the fa before the match.
What do you think they were implying about the official being a Luton fan ?
Probably tgst5, according to the PGMOL rules, as seen by Oliver, the official, a recognised Luton fan, should be replaced Dan.
Let me ask you this – would you expect a recognised spud official to be on duty when we play our final game against Everton, where we need to win to clinch the PL and, if said person was appointed, would you raise concerns before the match and, especially, after the game, if three contenscious issues saw us lose the game?
Perfectly sensible post KEN.
However when you read my own piece, which gives an entirely different premise from Dans about why I SAY WE ARE UNWISE TO EVER EXPECT PEFECTION, we will again quarrel.
You and I will revisit our quarrels when you read it and you heard that first from me, even though as yet its only in my head and not emailed in to PAT.
Davi, A wise and sober minded post .
I will be sending in a pieceof my own with an entirely different premise to the whole and unrealistic widespread demand for ref and VAR perfection in decisions.
VAR has intensified that foolish demand and far worsened that unwise general expectation of perfection that exists throughout football, except to those who think far deeper about the ROOT cause of this silly peerfection demand.
. It lies far deeper than individual clubs, players, refs, VAR refs and goes to the heart of what we all ought and ought NOTto have the right ,in reality, to expect
. UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS OF PERFECTION WILL ALWAYS TRIP UP THOSE WHO DONT RECOGNISE THE FUTILITY OF THEIR OWN DEMANDS.
I think they were right, it’s not just Forest, it’s a whole plethora of clubs and penalties being given for one club, then almost exactly the same situation happens at another club, and it’s not given. Take Kai Havertz for example, I feel he is being picked in for whatever reason by the PGMOL. Stonewall red card on Saturday, all three checkboxes ticked, yet the game was not even stopped, and Havertz was left to writhe on the ground. The only positive was that his leg / ankle was not broken, which it very easily could’ve been as the slo mo showed his led bending. However, Kai goes down in the penalty area, and it’s an instant yellow card – I’m sorry but I can’t recall a match, where a player has gone down in the penalty area and been given a yellow card, after appealing, yet technically if they appeal, and the referee rules it isn’t, it should be, yet Kai appears to be the only person this rule is applied to.
Good for them I say the only thing I saw disgraceful was Antony Taylor’s officiating ,and he’s ment to be one of the best in the PL.
I recently watched the MOTD broadcast when the Hillsborough disaster happened and how the establishment tried to cover up its role in this by blaming the Liverpool fans.
They accused them of drunkeness, robbing the injured and dying and storming the gates, climbing over fellow supporters in order to get into the ground.
They denied facts that were actually proven to be true and it took years of fighting the government, the police force and the media before justice of a kind was given to those 96 football supporters.
That’s one of the reasons I always hold back and check the facts before commenting on issues such as Hillsborough, the recent CL final involving Liverpool fans (which once again exonerated them) and this Forest issue.
It already seems that the PGMOL have mislead us, by stating that Forest didn’t raise the subject before the game, whereas Forest say they have the proof that they did.
If that’s the case, why the cover-up and why didn’t the PGMOL just say “OK we take your point, let’s just change the official in charge of the var for that day?
If, of course, Forest DON’T have that proof, they are deserving of having the book thrown at them, not only for lying, but for bringing the match officials into disrepute.
One does wonder why not one of the three incidents were not deemed enough for the referee to be called over to the screen and I don’t see how that has ANYTHING to do with the long list of examples given by Dan, such as Toney being disciplined for betting on games – perhaps I’m missing something here?
I DO agree with his comments that Forest have cheated and that’s why they have been punished with points deduction, as have Everton of course.
But that really has nothing to do with the complaint Forest are making about the inaction of the PGMOL with regards to their observation / complaint about a self confessed Luton Town fan running the var system for this specific game.
I read that Michael Oliver once said that he would never be allowed to referee a Newcastle game or even a Sunderland game, because he is a self confessed Geordie fan – doesn’t that make sense, as it takes away ANY possibility of the points that Forest are making?
The thing that does intrigue me though, is why Everton didn’t raise the issue?
Surely they should have been as concerned as Forest?
I’m intrigued as to what further facts emerge, but, as it stands at the moment, Forest need to produce the evidence they say they have, or be damned.
What I SHOULD have added, was that, if Michael Oliver’s statement is correct as to how the PGMOL act, were they not breaking their own rules?
I do agre with a great dealof DANs well set out and easy toread therefore, .
Howeve I dissent on a greata deal too and also much believe DAN, as he commonly does in his pieces lacks balance and a deeper, more intense thought into the CRUZ OF WHY this happened.
It boils down, not entirely but quite a lot actually, into the whole way football today expects and demands perfection of decisions, which to my mind is and always has and always will be unrealistic.
I suggest the ill advised advent and perceived need for the intoduction of VAR is largely responsible for these unrealistic demands for perfection in all ref decisions.
And this is far wider then merely individual clubs, which DAN RIGHTLY MENTIONS,WHO HOWEVER SHOW THEIR OWN AND THEIR FANS RAMPANT SELF ENTITLEMENT TO A PERFECTION THAT SIMPLY CANNOT EVER EXIST.
Having read Dans interesting but IMO slanted piece, I am bound to now send in a differently written and far deeper analysis,in an article of my own about the whole UNREALISTIC clubs and fans expectation for PERFECTION OF DECISIONS.
I will tackle head on combatting the blantantly missing ingredient which is , I repeat, that foolish and widespread DEMAND FOR PERFECTION of decisions.
A lost cause that I, almost though not entirely alone on JA, have been suggesting is THE TRUE REALITY ALL ALONG.
No-one ever demanded perfection. All that was expected from VAR was:
1. Improvement. Which we got.
2. Understanding why the level of improvement is not to the same extent as is seen in every other sport (and as seen in football in every country).
Question 2 is what’s at the root of all the discussions about VAR in football. Writing about a non-existent “demand for perfection” will be a waste of people’s time – that is NOT the issue.
No one has asked for perfection Jon and you have brought that in, so that you can enforce your outdated views.
If we didn’t use new technology and improve it as time goes by, we wouldn’t have had the industrial revolution would we?!
Instead of saying your a realist, your a denier of improvement, but I accept your outdated views as those of an ageing fan.
Yeah it’s called a straw man argument or straw man fallacy.
A deliberate distortion of someone else’s position to make it easier to attack it.
Jon, I suggest you go to Google and listen to an article submitted by a chap called Uti Chaturvedi, where he is discussing the autobiography of the ex referee Mike Halsey.
Halsey reveals that the PGMOL instructed referees to say that they hadn’t seen an incident, after reporting they had and decided no further action was needed, in order to take retrospective action.
He cited a game between Blackburn Rovers and Stoke City involving Shaw Ross, but you and anyone else can listen to it.
He also revealed (Haksey) that he refused to take a severance pay offer, because it involved a gagging order!!
So can you explain to me why Halsey would say all this and why the PGMOL would want referees to sign a gagging order?
It’s also being reported (haven’t seen it myself) that the PGMOL are currently refusing to release the audio tapes of the Everton / Forest match.
OVER TO YOU JON AND DAN!!
I have no idea Ken It is in any case irrelevant to my contention that refs do not cheat.
That you say they do is itself a disgrace and not worthy of a man of your life and esp FOOTBALL experience!
But JON, here’s a referee actually STATING that they were told to cheat!!
What ON EARTH can’t you see other than that following Halsey’s revelation?
You’ve asked for PROOF and when it’s given to you by an EX REFEREE, you try and have a go at ME!!
That kind of reaction is unworthy of YOU JON, and to say it’s irrelevant is the BIGGEST load of BS you’ve EVER written.
I ask you again – in your opinion, WHY would the PGMOL ask their referees to sign a gagging order and falsify their match report?
Funny how years of horrific referring and inexplicable decisions barely bothers some people but calling out the BS and challenging PGMOL is a problem for the same people.
Going through the “right” channels get’s you nowhere, only a naïve person would believe it changes anything.
PGMOL is untouchable and that’s the reality, whatever is said/done has zero affect and we’ve all seen that for years. I applaud NF for at least standing up against the rot, showed backbone!
I find it difficult to understand how anyone can side with PGMOL and the pundits but claim they love football at the same time.
My question:
Is NF’s allegations more of a disgrace to the EPL than the extremely poor standard of refereeing for years and years?
I’ll wait 🙂
Yes lol
No, at least until we see the evidence from Forest and hear what went on in the VAR room.
I think a panel of an independent adjudocators should be constituted by the FA or Sports Ministry. And have them to investigate the Nothingham Forest’s cheating allegation against them in the said match. In particular, as it relates to the Pgmol match officiating officials and the VAR actions and inaction in the match.
And come out with a honest finding reports. No matter whose Ox maybe gore by the honest finding reports.
The honest findings reports SHOULD not be secretly paddled to suit the whims and caprices of some highly placed persons in football corridor of power.
100% correct Samuel and my friend Phil agrees with you as well PAL!!
Forest got a bit carried away with themselves over this and will get very little, if any support from their contemporaries. It will all end in tears for them and the very least they can expect will be a hefty and deserved fine.
Re PGMOL and referees, there’s not an even dispersion of them across the country as most come from the north west, & none from London at all, so is it any wonder that these sort of accusations come up from time to time, while better recruitment from southern leagues is essential for fairness to be seen. I don’t think there’s any dishonesty among them and on the whole they’re quite good. but when they do have a stinker it causes all sorts of silliness from pundits, players, managers and dare I say it…bloggers.
…and the odd JA commenter or two.
Absolute load of tosh.Quit the ‘ virtue signalling’ & wise up.There are so many things wrong with the PGMOL & VAR system I’d have to spend all day listing their failures & they’ve been documented enough over the seasons.
Perhaps the PGMOL& VAR & FA can give us justifiable excuses for their catalogue of errors/ bias/ corruption? Take your pick.Sick to death of this holier than thou view people like yourselves hold up to.
You’re effectively saying it’s all fair,no problem.British don’t cheat? Please………….
Positive Pete tries a bit of negativity 🤣
And he’s done it well – bcos he’s absolutely spot on 👍
Oh & I sincerely hope Forest appeal to the independent court of arbitration for sport.Drag the lot of em through the courts.
Perhaps you should ask yourself the question as to why the club with 115 charges no less has still not been up before the beak? Yet the lowly clubs are being hammered almost instantly.? Yep.Nothing dodgy there of course.lol😂🤫
Man (115) City will be ‘up before the beak’ this autumn with the results of the inquiry etc given next summer (2025) unless the 115 lawyers they have can delay it any further, and then there will be appeals against any judgments.
But you already knew that didn’t you!
I do wonder what the results will be Jax? Will it actually happen in the Autumn? And even if found guilty, what the punishment will be? Do you think it will be substantial if most (if not all) of the 115 counts are true?..
Some how, I do feel a certain lenience will be bestowed. After all, It’s mega bucks middle eastern money which is good for the EPL, right?
It’s definitely scheduled for this autumn, unless City’s lawyers delay it any further. I’ve not got a clue what punishments will be given or who gets any money if its a fine.
I can’t wait to see them squirm when the judgments are announced.
Pete, I understand the reason for that is that City’s stuff was before the new rules came in.
It’s much easier to see when the new rules have been broken, the old stuff… not so much. Supposedly that’s why the delay.
Is that true or not? Dunno. Fans will have their own views on that explanation. I’ll wait to see what comes out of it at the end.
Only way to end the problem is to make it not worthwhile. Start by stripping titles. Move on to deeming owners to be unfit and demand that they sell the club.
Harsh? Nah. Only that will stop the rot. Anything else is just a “cost of doing business” to these people.
The kind of ‘fan’ who would justify Mike Riley’s corrupt performance at Old Trafford in our invincible 50th match.
Shameless.
What about when Pires dived at home to Pompey ?
Selective
Pires ‘dive’ at home to Pompey?R I having a laugh? The media pilloried hom for that( later,contact was proved)& were talking about multiple decisions over the years with PGMOL corruption/ ineptitude ( take your pick)
To bring one minor incident with an Arsenal player.really?
I guess u have no problems either with all the leg breaks we suffered under Wenger.I despair.
Pires intentionally put his right foot in between the defenders legs and went down. He cheated.
And I can give you multiple incidents where Arsenal have benefitted from decisions
Works both ways
I despair
So they try & delay it.So what? There innocent? There are none so blind………
The biggest problem we have right now is that there is NO consistency. Forest’s second penalty appeal (Hand ball) would have been given last week in another game. The third penalty appeal would definitely have been given IMO. They are right to feel hard done by but the way they went about things was all wrong.
No I think there’s a perspective you’ve missed in all this. Clubs buy into the fair play unwritten game theory rule, that is the ref will often provide an advantage to the victim later if he understands an error, now in Forests case what they’ve observed correctly is that that rule has broken down, so much so that game after game there’s absolute controversy from punching to handballs, stamping.. Forest have been getting zero in retrospective treatment. This is the issue, they’ve lost trust. You can’t blame Forest, they’re whistleblowers, not crying wolf here. We need more clubs with balls, just because they’ve broke rank it doesn’t mean they’re a round peg. Well done Forest hand 👏
GunneRay.Perhsps the way they went about it was childish.But what course of action should they have taken when clearly the FA,prem,PGMOL are burying their heads on the sands when it comes to these concerns.They are unaccountable.Answer to no one.Its a closed shop.Until we have an independent body,perhaps even flying ref teams from abroad,the ball chipped .etc etc etc.Poor performances penalised effectively ( not a slap on the wrist) well the list is endless….
But what is this going to achieve?
I agree with Pete regarding the accountability angle.
Why is that referees are never called on to answer the decisions they make?
Managers are duty bound to come out after a game, while still reliving the match and expected to give an interview, but not criticise the officials?
That tackle on Tomiyasu last night – shouldn’t we be told why that wasn’t a red card, why the referee didn’t see it and why the var official didn’t intervene?
Of course we should be told and the reason we’re not, is because the PGMOL, as usual, are covering their backsides… in my opinion!!
I agree too. Every other sport hears the refs explaining their decisions. Most sports even explain it there and then, not afterwards.
For the record,
I support Arsenal.
I’m wondering politely if a club point out that any referee support a certain club for whatever reason and is before the game begin me think it should not be ignored.
But what they are implying makes zero sense
A Luton fan would have wanted Everton to lose just as much
Of course. The problem is that there are so many referees from the northwest of England that there must at some point be conflicts. There should be more from the rest of England.
I disagree with the stance that the PGMOL, VAR, and refs are somehow beyond reproach. One dare not speak against the King, lest you suffer the consequences.
Never mind the repeated mistakes, the numerous inconsistencies in matches, and the incompetence that we see. Don’t dare to question or challenge them, they are not to be questioned.
Accountability would be nice, but I don’t expect to see that anytime soon. Just hope you are not on the receiving end of their incompetence.
Thewhole busines of concerning oneself where aref come from and who he supports , leans toward a suspicion of refs being biased I have NEVER thought ANY refs are biased, which in plainEnglish means they cheat. No wonder so many sily fans think refs cheat while we haverthis ludicrous nonsense ebased on effectively nn allround suspicion even by thr PGMOL that refs cheat! THEY DONT and it is a wicked libel to say they do.
Even to so called “guard against it by worrying about geography of refs homes”. What utter nonsense it ALL is. We ought to ceaseRIGHT NOW this worry aboutwho refs support or where theylive and start trusting our officials. COMPLETELY TOO, not by the current half hearted nonsense.
The supreme IRONY is that many players cheat and virtually ALL fans ARE BIASED!
Gross hypocrisy, but as we are all human, I am not a bit surprised at that!
So you’re OK with most of the PL refs coming from the northwest and none from London, jon?
Jax, I do not think refs are cheats Where they live is therefore completely irrelevant. Either we believe and trust them . Or we dont. And if weDONT, the gameis in huge crisis.
Imagining a crisis that does not exist though is for fools and I AM NOT ONE.
I don’t think they cheat either, but do possibly have unconscious bias.
…might possibly have…
jf, refs have CHEATED in the past, so why not now ?
HD I dont wish to show disrespect but your post is so unthinking as to not attract a serious answer from me.
So jf, you CAN’T/WON’T answer a simple question, or do not believe refs HAVE CHEATED in the past ?
HD You are right to say yours is a simple question Simple minded would be a more accurate phrase.
Sufficd to say we come from polar different philosophies of how we think.
jf, the awkward moment when YOU call me simple minded 😂😂.
If you believe that refs have never cheated, then I have a bridge to sell you.
A less obtuse fan would have accepted by now that never the twain shall meet, HD.
I tried to tell you that we come from polar different philosophies in how we think about refs.
And that therefore, I REFUSE TO PLAY YOUR GAME.
Either you accept that, OR you keep asking the same pointless, unanswered question. YOUR CHOICE!
ITS NOT A GAME jf. Refs have been bribed in the past, which amounts to cheating !!
If you’re scared to face the truth, then that’s down to you !
👍👏
I’m not asking on behalf of jon, but who are these cheating refs?
I’ll give you the Mike Dean one Ken, but I can’t find anything more by Googling, other than the ones not taking place here in the UK, and some rubbish on YouTube. Has there ever been a prosecution of English refs? I read plenty of accusations, but none that end in charges. I really, really hate to admit it, but I agree with Mr Uphisownarse(nal) on this, and don’t think that they deliberately cheat. I understand another article on this subject is forthcoming🙄.
I’ll ask the obvious question: which refs?
Jax, come on man!!
I’ll give you an example of one who openly admitted he cheated by not following the rules.. MIKE DEAN!!
He admitted to NOT following the rules in order to benefit a fellow professional who was having a bad game!!
That’s not being incompetent, it is CHEATING, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
Jax, I suggest you Google referees who have been found guilty of cheating… of course, Dean won’t be found there, but others will.
Not to mention the clubs who have been found guilty of systematically “match fixing”. Bribing refs and players on an industrial scale. AC Milan springs to mind.
I know about the ongoing situations within Spain, but any here in England
Jax, I refer to the points being made above, in which it’s being alleged by Halsey.
I guess we should be asking if referees still have to sign gagging orders and falsify match reports under the new PGMOL – if that is proven to be correct.
My two questions would be, why would he lie and why would PGMOL want referees to do that??
Not being caught is not the same as not doing it.
There’s a lot of ways it can happen. You can only detect it if money or “favour” changes hands. If a ref from an area of Manchester is biased in favour of a Manchester club there’s no money trail to follow. You can’t know what went through someone else’s mind so you can’t take action after the fact. You need to prevent that situation from happening in the first place – by appointing refs who dont have potential bias – same as in international football where you dont ever see an English ref in charge of an England game.
Well, I did suggest in another comment that a better, more even dispersion of the referees should be applied, and that we have too many from the northwest anyway, who may be biased, consciously or unconsciously against teams and people from the Southeast. This might at least deter some of the idiot PGMOL conspirocy theorists.
Sorry Ken, but my reply somehow has become attached to another commenter’s, Herr Drier.😜 Probable yellow card offence.It’s a few posts above this one.
I’ve got Halsey’s book Ken and it’s bl;oody good. He wouldn’t sign the order would he, and probably made more than the £100k in book sales, and agree why would he lie! I really couldn’t say TBH. That’s not a cop out, I can’t answer that, or why there’s been no charges or prosecutions against bent refs.
Yet Jon Fox ignores it!!!
He’s asked for proof and then goes off on a tangent.
Sorry Jax, I asked you to read the article before reading that you had the book!!
Perhaps we should buy Jon and Dan a copy so they can educate themselves on the situation?
Instead of snidey sarcastic comments Ken, why not simply accept that I think differently from you and from some other on this Your constan attempts to “persuade” me to change my mind on long held life principles- in this case having respect forrefs judgement as being final- are insulting my principlesand are tedious to having to keep reading!!
If you wish to stay on friendly terms with me with me, i warn you to stop this constant battle you wage against my intellect. I am serious KEN, SO ITS UP TO YOU
. If you refuse to accept my above comments in future then you and I will be finished being on friendly terms. I
would sincerely regret that, but I WILLNOT BE CONSTANTLY TREATED LIKE THIS.
YOUR CHOICE, KEN SO I HOPE VERY MUCH YOU CHOOSE FRIENDSHIP INSTEAD OF YOUR CURRENT TACTICS.
Jon, it’s not a “snidy remark” it’s a remark that PROVES you wrong and you can’t take it.
That’s twice you’ve not been able to answer two simple questions – WHY would that be?
Because it proves you wrong and it is two ex referees who are proving it!!
If you can’t admit that you are wrong, with the facts being presented to you, what’s the point in debating anymore?
By the way, the PGMOL are refusing to let me audio of the Everton Forest game, but are meeting the latter in private to discuss the matter – WHAT HAVE THEY GOT TO HIDE?!?!
Ken, it’s a bit rich of jf call anyone snidey, considering what he insinuated about me further up. Fact is, he has a problem being a REALIST.
HD, I agree completely with BOTH your points.
I’m following this guy, Uti Chaturvedi on Google and he’s bringing some more interesting facts out.
It seems that, while the PGMOL will not release the audio from the var studio, they have arranged to meet Forest at a private meeting to discuss their concerns face to face.
HOWEVER, it seems that there is NO video of Forest’s third penalty appeal, the one that nearly everyone agrees was a penalty.
I wonder why?
Furthermore, Uti believes that Forest are going to SUE the PGMOL over this debacle.
This isn’t going away soon and those who choose not to believe what Halsey says in his autobiography are burying their heads in the sand and are not REALISTS in any sense of the word.
Here’s a suggestion that a poster made, why not have a post match interview with the officials to discuss decisions and mike them, so the audience can hear what is being discussed and decided… as in rugby and cricket?
More to follow I’m sure.
You speak of Forest statements not being evidenced and then say “They finally arrived at the big dance and acted rudely ever since” and “Everybody wants them to leave the party”. Neither of which you can evidence because they are broad sweeping statements that are simply not true. By way of evidence of what I’ve just said have a look at the response to the latest Tweet from the FA about Forest from fans from teams in and outside the Premiership. It’s fine to disagree with what Forest gave done but making inaccurate statements about their behaviour over the last two years and everyone’s responses is not fine.
JF.If you don’t believe refs cheat.( extremely naive opinion) I can’t help you.Except I’ll give you just two examples from Arsenals dealings with refs.
First up.The Van Persie sending off at Barcelona in CL for kicking a ball after the whistle?Have a good look at it & give me an answer.
Secondly the performance of Mike Riley at old Trafford in Arsenals 5o th match.If you can tell me that match was reffed in an honest manner I’ll be gobsmacked.It was the most biased refereeing performance I’ve ever witnessed.A disgrace.
That van Persie incident was paid for. That I am sure about. What I don’t know is how much.
Mike Riley,Mike Dean just two infamous examples.I could go on but if you’re too into ‘ virtue signalling’ we are wasting our time & I have better things to do than argue the indefensible…….
International football… why is it that the ref is never from one of the two countries who are playing?
Obviously because of the possibility/likelihood of bias, conscious or otherwise.
Why would club football be any different? I am amazed that anyone can’t see the obvious parallel.
For example. Having a bloke from Salford ref Man U v Arsenal is like having Ramsdale’s dad decide who plays in goal for Arsenal. No matter how hard they try, they will never see it “straight”.
(Salford is a suburb of Greater Manchester btw for those who don’t know).
The Mail’s reporting that Howard Webb’s going to be having peace talks with the Forest Execs. So that should be interesting🤔.
The nievity of saying that referees don’t cheat is going against all the evidence.
Just think about this FACT – We have evidence of cheating Barristers, solicitors, police, NHS staff, bankers, politicians, husbands, wives, football managers and players, rugby players, tennis players, boxers, boxing judges, athletes, cyclists, skaters, in fact everyone from every walk of life…. except, it seems, referees and that’s despite the fact that they’ve been proven to cheat and the words of Mike Dean and Mike Halsey, if reported correctly from his autobiography, confirm it!!
One surely has to be a REALIST to understand the above don’t they?
Yes, but why no action taken against them Ken. You’d think by now that someone would have said ‘you’re nicked’.
The only actions you ever see is when a referee gets demoted a division or two for a game or a short suspension. But this is usually following a well-reported major error in a PL game.
As I posted a reply to one of your comments above Ken… we do have evidence of refs cheating.
When clubs are found guilty of match fixing, that means refs have been as well bcos they fix the matches by getting the refs to make decisions in their favour.
When AC Milan were guilty (more than once) of match fixing, they were paying refs. Strange thing is… I dont remember action being taken against the refs involved, only the club.
Even then, the action was weak against the club. They cant bear the idea that one of their clubs goes under, or gets less competitive, so the punishment never amounts to much. Which is prob why Milan has done it more than once.
And then there’s the Barcelona thing. They were paying some made-up fee to the body that does refereeing in Spain.
Nobody could point to individual decisions on the field, but one way or another those payments translate into referees on the field making decisions which benefit whoever is paying.
Noneof what you allege is ever said by pundits, newpapers, onTV, radio and when such as Kompany DID said last wek that the ref was “A F….ng CHEAT” , HE WILL BEIN BIG TROUBLE NATURALLY, AS ITS A NONSENSE AND ALL YOU HAVE IS YOU OWN BIAS TO STAND ON.
I notice that IF it were probably true, as you allege, they would have nothing to fear from a libel or slander action, which would be bound to follow.
Rightly too as its absolute nonsense, as all fair minded fans know. Not that there are MANY of those around, sadly! And certainly NOT YOU!
And thats it on refs KEN. Remember what I SAID IN MY FIRST POST as I am deadly serious, if you persist!
provably true, not probably true!
Ken in answer to your post timed at 7.12pm, as I MADE ABUNDANTLY CLEAR, I AM NOT here to have my already well explained motive for thinking as I DO QUESTIONED BY YOU OR BY ANYONE.
I have said that I WILL NOT BE GETTING INVOLVED IN MORE USELESS QUARRELS WITH YOU, WHICH ARE DESIGNED BY YOU TO FORCE ME, SOMEHOW, (LAUGHBLY!!!) TO CHANGE MY LIFE LONG HELD PRINCIPLES .
I am NOT going to do so OR be questioned as to why.
If you are the decent, fair minded man I have hitherto considered you to be , you will drop it now or face my permanent silence from ALL debate .
LAST TIME I WILL SAY THIS TO YOU KEN!!!!
Fine with me Jon, fine with me.
😉.
A missed opportunity there Ken 😜
I’m surprised you just accepted what he said tbf. Someone coming here to “debate” can’t refuse to hear counter arguments.
Claiming that their view is a “principle” doesn’t change that – and anyway it is a bit strange to claim that it’s a “principle” to have a gullible belief that the integrity of a referee is unquestionable. It’s just a viewpoint – and a bit of a strange view at that.
Basically, if his mind’s already made up, then there’s no point in debating it with him so maybe you should be the one to walk away from further debate?
Yes, but why no action taken against them Ken. You’d think by now that someone would have said ‘you’re nicked’.
So good I said it twice😜
If your talking about PGMOL Jax, then if it’s true (which this autobiography seems to say it is) the clause that gags officials in exchange for money, might have something to do with it.
All I can do, is report what I read and hear and when people ask for proof, but then ignore it a d have a go at the messenger, it becomes silly.
As a realist, if someone presents something to me and says here’s the proof you asked for, I would look into it, but hey! I’m accused of being a shameful football fan and my age is part of the reason!!
Have a look yourself at the article Jax and tell me what you think about it.
Dan’s article? I don’t think it was fair to call Forest a disgrace over going public on something that should have remained private between the involved parties. They just made complete fools of themselves and will most likely get a heavy punishment.
TBH I don’t think that clubs or players should be punished in any way for giving honest opinion, even if wrong. Also the FA charge of bringing the game into disrepute by the same. One day a multi millionair player or club manager is going to make a legal challenge against fines imposed for speaking their mind.
The rest of the article was decent enough opinion on standards & fans differing attitudes.
No Jon, it’s best we hold fire on ANY debating, as I can’t see anyway we see eye to eye in this footballing matter and name calling bores me to death.
Let’s see what unfolds regarding the story, as I believe there IS more to come and can’t be bothered getting into a “told you so” argument.
Respect is a two way thing by the way.
I have to say Dan, this has been one of the best articles on JA for some time.
Keep them coming😉.