Arsenal’s “Numerous and Humiliating” defeats -(1) Champions League

HUMILIATIONS – NUMEROUS – FOR AND AGAINST – LET’S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT by Ken1945

The Concise Oxford Dictionary definition:

HUMILIATION = To lower or hurt the pride of –

NUMEROUS= A numerous collection, consisting of many parts.

We are always told that, from 2008 onwards, our club was subjected to numerous humiliating defeats, in the Champions League, the Premier League and the FA cup.

So I decided to challenge this statement, by going back and looking at our results in all three competitions – not only to see if there were “numerous” humiliations, but also the opposite.

Of course, it all depends on what any individual classes as “humiliating”, but it seems that anything that involved a defeat by more than four goals came under that umbrella, so that is my yardstick.

NB. I did ask the fan who keeps repeating these words for his definition of “humiliation”, but I got no response:

Champions League Record FROM 1996/97 T0 2016/17:

Played 191 – Won 96 (50%) – Drew 42 (22%) – Lost 53 (28%) – GF 311 – GA 208

So, we are looking at the 28% of lost matches, to see where the “four goal” standard takes effect.

Surprisingly, the first game we find with four goals recorded against us, was in the 99/2000 season, when Barcelona beat us at Wembley by four goals to two and the aggregate score was 3-5.

Onwards to the next season, where we actually recorded a 4-2 away win over Werder Bremen and the tie ended up 6-2 in our favour.

The following season now and in the group stages, we were beaten 4-1 away by Sparta Prague, while winning the home leg 1-0.

In 2001/02 we recorded a 4-1 home win against Bayer Leverkusen.

Fast forward to the next season and we see a 4-0 win against PSV Eindhoven, followed the next season by that magnificent 5-1 away win against Inter Milan.

2004/5 saw a 5-1 home win against Rosenburg and in 2007/8 a superb 7-0 home win against Slavia Prague…eventually losing in the QF to Liverpool 2-4 away and 1-1 at home.

In 2009/10, we recorded 4-1 and 5-0 home wins against AZ Alkmaar and FC Porto, before we lost to Barcelona in the QF by a 2-1 home win and 1-3 away loss.

In 2011/12, as we once again progressed to the K/O stages, but we lost 4-0 away and then won 3-0 at home to AC Milan.

It is not until the 14/15 season that a 4-goal number appears again, when we beat Galatasaray 4-1 at home.

The 15/16 season is where we can all say we were truly humiliated, losing 5-1 away, but winning 2-0 at home to Bayern Munich…so a 5-3 aggregate loss in total.

It is the following season, however, where the misleading quote of “numerous humiliations” is based in my opinion.

We actually recorded a 6-0 and 4-1 win against Ludogorets and FC Basil, before being totally outclassed in both home and away legs by 5-1…10-2 on aggregate – like many of you, I was there for the home leg and it was a shameful and humiliating experience – something I hope to never experience again.

So, hoping that you have followed me, I find that, using the difference of four goals, during our twenty years in the CL under AW, we have actually only suffered THREE “numerous and humiliating defeats…all of them against Bayern Munich!!!

As a percentage against the total losses suffered in the CL under AW, that works out at 5.7%…so I ask is that REALLY classed as “numerous defeats in the CL” as some fans would have us believe?

In actual fact, the humiliations we delivered to other CL teams outweigh those three we suffered and before someone says that those clubs were “small clubs” look at the names and don’t forget we DID play all the “big clubs” and still saw just three real humiliations against just one of the top clubs in the world!!!

Now, before anyone says I am defending AW, let me make it clear that is not the intention of this article… it is simply to put the record straight about our CLUB in the CL league over twenty years.

Any fan who sees the above results as a way to knock our club, either do not know the facts, doesn’t want to know them, or choose to ignore them in a way that promotes their own agendas.

Of course AW should have done better with the players he had, especially up and until the Final, where we lost with ten men against Barcelona.

George Graham has won more European titles than Arsene Wenger, who has none on his CV and it remains a mystery to me why our Invincibles lost to Chelsea in the QF and how Henry missed that chance when we were 1-0 up in the final.

I just want to set the record straight for those who have only just started to support our club and those who believe the same misinformation peddled out by others.

I intend to do the same exercise with the PL and the fa cup in the next week or so, but if anyone wants to check the facts I have used above, please refer to our official handbook 2018/19, where every single detail can be checked and crossed referenced. If I have missed a score or two out, it will be by accident I can assure you.

The articles on the PL and FA cup, will also have the facts and figures from the same source.

Just remember, next time you read that we were humiliated numerous times in the CL (let alone the PL and FA cup) it came from the same source that told us Mikel Arteta learnt what it meant to suffer humiliating defeats under Wenger….something that was disproved with just a little bit of homework.

Be as ruthless as you want in your responses, after all, it is a dull international week!!!!

ken1945

66 Comments

  1. gotanidea says:

    We aren’t even in CL and might miss it again next season. However, it’s been more than fifteen years since we got our last major trophy, so the current set of players will be legends if they can win EL

    1. Son says:

      Funny enough that sounds like you don’t even want them to win it.

      Well we have a good chance of winning it, barring man u in this stage of the competition the other teams are very winnable

      And except the two English teams bottle it, I’m looking forward to another all English EL final again

      1. gotanidea says:

        I really want them to win EL, because of their efforts in the comebacks

    2. Mobella says:

      Here we go again with major trophy narrative. Is there anything major or minor in the excitement feel at the moment when your clubs win a trophy. A champion is a champion in football and a trophy won can’t be undermined by its size or prestige. If otherwise, then why do all team compete for them.

      1. gotanidea says:

        For me, a competition can be classified as major or minor by its difficulty level, prize money and other rewards such as a CL ticket. Sometimes a team uses minor competitions for developing their young/ squad rotation players and to get other rewards

    3. Highbury Hero says:

      FA Cup is a major trophy and Arsenal is the Emperor of the FA Cup. Are we going to wait for the other big clubs to equal or pass our record to acknowledge the greatness of the FA Cup?

      1. gotanidea says:

        FA Cup isn’t a major trophy to me, because of the prize money

        1. Highbury Hero says:

          Prestige is priceless.

          1. Declan says:

            Absolutely HH, why is everyone so obsessed with money when as you say, we have prestige, we have history, we have class and we have pride.

  2. Mobella says:

    What an excellent post Ken1945 as usual. You know what, I almost believe “these numerous humiliated defects” as numerous until your fact finding article saved me. Do I enjoyed my beloved club been petted by Bayern Munich 5-1 on 3 occasions? No never but it Bayern for god sake and not spurs. What is more humiliating is losing to Burnley, Leicester…at home for first time in several decades. I can leave with any defect if we play so well and the team handling out the defect is so much better in everything. However, numerous and humiliation are relative terms. Where one is too much for someone 10 might be the beginning for others. I know where I stand. I do enjoy some arsenal defects though especially from Barca except the final because of the quality of football on the display. At least they are better than the one I have to live with now. Good job Sir..

    1. ken1945 says:

      Mobella, that is PRECISELY why I wrote the article my friend – repeat the lie enough times and it, somehow, becomes fact.

  3. Wyoming says:

    Chelsea has won the CL once.
    Aston Villa won the CL once.
    Nottingham Forest won twice
    Man U won 3 times.
    Liverpool has won 6 times.
    Arsenal has never won the CL.
    Nor has Man City Spurs or Everton.
    Until Arsenal win the Cl we will not
    be counted among European’s elite.

    1. Highbury Hero says:

      Are Aston Villa and Forrest counted among Europe elites?

      1. Krish says:

        Highbury hero i often share your views but i think you have got it wrong here.
        The CL is not the only criterion for an europe elite club, for me you have to be a top club (which has a lot of criterions) + have won the CL, arsenal is surely a top club but for me too like wyoming arsenal wont belong to the absolute elite as long as they have not won the CL, and aston villa and forrest dont belong to the elite as they arent a top club anymore

        1. Highbury Hero says:

          Good explanation Krish and I get your point.

    2. Phil says:

      Wyoming- I can assure you there is a huge difference between what was the European Cup and the Champions League. Just the sheer number of high intensity games after the Group Stages gives this competition its high rating. Would Villa and Notts Forest have been able to compete with their squads into this current format? I doubt it very much

  4. Highbury Hero says:

    As usual from Ken a wonderful read, full of facts and most importantly, educational!

    As embarrassing as the Bayern defeats were we are not the only ones. Nearly every team has tasted embarrassing defeats from Bayern for example Barcelona regardless of their strengths they are used to be embarrassed by Bayern. We conceded 5 goals but Barcelona conceded 8 at home.

    Which big club haven’t tasted embarrassing defeats?

    1. Phil says:

      HH- I believe the fact Wenger allowed us to finish runners up in the group was solely responsible for us drawing Bayern twice plus Barcelona in the first knockout game. Seeding are nor applied after the Groups. It’s First place v a second place. The fact that three years running we were drawn against two of the very best teams didn’t help our at least progressing though to the QF stage. I’m not suggesting we would have gone further than this but at least we would have had a fighting chance

      1. Highbury Hero says:

        Our champions league record have never been good even during Wenger’s successful Highbury times except for a semi and final finish.

        It is correct that a favourable round of 16 draw gives a fighting chance to progress but we failed against Monaco.

        Even though we didn’t progress further than round of 16 at least participation in the Champions League is expected for club of Arsenal size.

        Wenger champions league record has never been good and I don’t think that is what the article is trying to address.

  5. Gunnerdev says:

    Great facts. But i don’t see how a defeat can be less humiliating just because we beat another team by a simimilar score. Winning 4-0 and losing 4-0 doesn’t cancel each other out

    1. ken1945 says:

      I agree 100% Gunner dev, but it was for comparison purposes, as the argument tended to focus on losses only.

  6. guy says:

    Agree Wyoming, although the European Cup was a lot easier to win than the CL. Villa for example played 9 legs in total to win, including 4 against teams I have never heard of before or since.. There first tough game was Anderlecht in the semis, although of course Bayern in the final was a great achievement. Just wanted to say that the modern CL is the real yardstick.

  7. guy says:

    Good article Ken – some interesting stuff there. We live in an era of emotive language, and this site is only echoing the way all media has gone. It’s all about inciting the reader even when you dont have the facts to back it up.

  8. ThirdManJW says:

    Kens rose-tinted glasses yet again when it comes to Wenger.

    Last 7/8 years under Wenger were awful to watch in Europe, especially as he NEVER seemed to learn from mistakes. Mainly, knockout stages were two legs, not one! We often won the battle, but always lost the war. Crazy how he survived the sack after those Bayern humiliations.

    1. ken1945 says:

      TMJW, thede we have your personal animosity to Wenger showing like a beacon in the dark.
      This was not about Wenger, it was about your claim of “numerous humiliations” in the CL (along with the PL and FA cup).
      So, have you any further examples, other than the one’s I have given regarding Bayern Munich?
      By the way, did you miss the part where I said George Graham had a better record than AW?
      Perhaps you will now give me your definition of “numerous humiliations” as I prepare the PL AND FA cup articles?

      1. ThirdManJW says:

        Humiliating isn’t just about a thrashing, or losing to an inferior team. It’s also about the WAY we lost games, and consistently bottling it when the pressure was on. As I said, Wenger never learned from his mistakes, and that was humiliating to see us falling apart the same way EVERY season.

        All managers lose games in a bad way, but doing it year after year after year, and in the same way, was painfully humiliating. Even most Arsenal fans knew we were already beat before the players stepped on the pitch, and Wenger proved us right.

        Those two legs against Atletico at the end of his reign perfectly summed up how bad we had become in Europe.

        1. ken1945 says:

          So, the “humiliation” wasn’t the scoreline then TMJW, so why do you keep quoting the 8-2, the 5-1 and the 6-0 as if they are just examples OF many others… as the word numerous explains?
          Now I’m more than happy to concede that we had many games, even numerous, when we left the game feeling underwhelmed and frustrated… but never humiliated.
          In the CL, the only two games I felt REALLY humiliated were the two 5-1 defeats.
          The issue I have with your claims though, is that, to date, it has always been about the scoreline and, if you read Mobella’s reply, that was the message that you were sending out.
          I have no issue whatsoever with saying that AW underachieved in Europe, especially as the man himself admits it.
          You seem to think I walked out of the Emirates happy with Wenger’s tactics and result… for sure 5-1 at home was the perfect definition of humiliation… just tell me what season that happened?

          I have just proved to you that we didn’t do it year after year, simply by applying your assessment of what humiliation is… ie the scoreline, but here you are repeating it once again.
          Tell me TMJW, with dross players, no defence and no tactics, how did our players manage to get to the knockout stages against the elite of Europe?

          Now, I have no doubt whatsoever that when I analyse the PL and FA cup results from 2008 onwards, there will be the same kind of results as in the CL.

          I am more than happy to do this, simply because fans like Mobella are being misled, as the results show.

          1. ThirdManJW says:

            I quote the big scorelines simply because it’s a quick way of getting my point across, but there is plenty more evidence to go on should I wish to write an article on our regression in Europe under Wenger.

            It was very easy to get the knockout stages because our groups were easy. Being an Arsenal fan, who claims to watch us, you should have already known that. When it started getting tough, we crumbled every time. I lost count the amount of times Wenger threw the ties away in the first leg with his ridiculous gung-ho tactics.

          2. ken1945 says:

            TMJW, I will include the number of times we lost the first leg tie in each season from 2008 to 2016 in my next article.
            Just remember your quote “I lost count of the number of times Wenger threw the first leg tie away with his ridiculous gung ho tactics” though, because as a Arsenal fan who claims to watch us, you should know that.
            Care to give me a guess?

      2. gerry burke says:

        this was not about wenger ???. ah here, i give up, the laird has finally lost all the marbles.

  9. Lenohappy says:

    I don’t even care about all those scorelines, have said it before and I will say it again, Wenger last 10 years was a failure. Humiliation is not all about the score line, how many matches did we played against the top teams that even before the match started we already know we aren’t going to win, how many times in a row did we fail to qualify from the round of 16 in champions league, you talked about the champions league but I didn’t see you mention the 2009 champions league match against united when we were beating 4:1 on aggregate. There’s no greater humiliation than knowing your club is going to the champions league only to be eliminated in the second round, there’s no greater humiliation than for a legend like Wenger spending 22 years in the club and only played one European cup final. Arsene Wenger played 2 years in the europa league and didn’t even get to the final, whereas clubs like Chelsea and united come to the competition and win it.
    Ken I may not be an English man but my in definition of humiliation is different to yours. I define humiliation as “the embarrassment and shame you feel when someone makes you appear stupid, or when you make a mistake in public” and yes thats what we were under Wenger, we were known as a stupid club, a club that has a low mindset, a club that always celebrate after getting 4th position, a club that can’t get past the second round of the champions league even when we got an easy draw against the likes of Monaco. So you see Ken your in definition of humiliation is different from mine.

    1. ken1945 says:

      Lenohappy, some interesting points, let me answer them.
      First of all, the criteria I used for “numerous humiliations” was a 4 goal deficit at the end of the two ties – I did ask for clarification, but wasn’t given one… that’s why I didn’t mention that game, that ended 3-4 over the two legs.
      Like you I believe Arsene failed in his attempts to win a European trophy – did you miss my comparison with George Graham?
      However, the purpose of the article, was not to “defend” Wenger was it?
      The purpose was to point out that our club have not suffered “numerous humiliations”…. not Wenger but our club.
      I find your thoughts about expecting to lose a strange one, do you feel that way at this moment in time?
      I always expect The Arsenal to win every game, but perhaps I’m an optimistic fan and your a pessimistic one?
      Not only pessimistic it seems, but also supporting a “stupid” club?
      Sorry my friend, but your interpretation of what it means for a club to finish in the top four is something that every club in Europe aims for… that’s where the money is… prize money for qualification alone is £40,000,000 and yet you say we were seen as a “stupid” club? Without being rude, I would suggest that that statement of yours is the most single stupid statement I have ever read!
      Why do you think we are always talking about top four finishes?
      We therefor do disagree on what “numerous humiliations” mean and I would ask you to check on the club’s that knocked us out of each q/f, just quoting Monaco as an example, is hardly a even handed portrayal…and, by the way, what round was it when we got beaten by united?

    2. Mambo says:

      Sell then by that logic we are being fkn humiliated under Arteta yhis season.

  10. Loose Cannon says:

    Good effort Mr. Ken, as usual lot of stats and facts to prove the critics of your views wrong. The humiliation is being 22 years in the competition to make up the numbers, get the participation fee without any serious effort/attempt (bar one season) to win it. Regarding your next article on domestics cups, in 22 years Wenger never won the League Cup which is a shame, as a serial winner is serious to win it.
    Most clubs get humiliated once in a while, but then we had a habit of being humiliated thrice by BM under Wenger and then Barca, Milan losing when it mattered most.
    No amount of whitewash may cover the stains of Wengers disastrous European adventures of 22 years. Thank Goodness its over.

    1. ken1945 says:

      Ah Loose Cannon, good to hear from you again – still trying to find any fans who backed up your claim that they were saying Ozil was better than Bergkamp?
      Yet another example of a fan spreading misinformation!!!

      As for this article, can you give me chapter and verse when Barca and Milan (either of them) humiliated us?

      As I sais, this has nothing to do with AW, it is about what actually happened – somefhing you seem not interested in.

  11. Phil says:

    @Ken1245- another watered down one-sided account as usual from your good self. The very least I would have expected to accompany these statistics were the following

    1) The country of birth of all the Officials for each and every CL Fixture we participated in

    2) The number of programmes sold at each home fixture

    3) The attendance at each game played at The Emirates

    4) Names and addresses of each supporter who attended

    Please try harder next time

    1. ken1945 says:

      Phil, I take it you agree with the rest of the article then?
      Sorry about the omissions but as you probably attended all three humiliations…. and the “numerous” games where we humiliated our opponents… I would have expected you to know all these facts!!!
      Of course, the attendance record would have been the maximum allowed, unlike the europa Cup attendances.

  12. Matthew says:

    I believe wenger didn’t win the champions league as a manager because of his loyalty to arsenal,if he had gone to real madrid,he would’ve won it&he would’ve won it with us if henry didn’t sabotage/betray us with his numerous missed chances in 2006…so stop all the disrespectfulness towards the man,he’s been gone for almost 4years already

  13. Davi says:

    I never heard the humiliating losses quite attributed to the CL alone. We also had some big losses in the league and domestic cups during that time.
    Sometimes we only lost by 1 or 2 goals but it was the way we lost also, without offering anything and some teams could win whilst taking it easy.

    1. Davi says:

      Sorry should have read it more carefully, I’ll await further installments

      1. ken1945 says:

        Davi, your point about the way we lose/lost games is relevant, but I am replying to the continued allegations that we lost “numerous” times, with the score lines ALWAYS being mentioned… 8-2 6-0 10-2…that is what I am addressing.
        To date, three matches in the CL have been identified, a %figure of 5.7%…now on to the FA cup and PL.
        IF it is proved that we have suffered “numerous defeats” each season and /or overall, then I will apologise to those who are claiming this as fact.

    2. ken1945 says:

      Davi, you could be talking about some of the games we have witnessed every season under every manager and with every set of players… except of course, the CL.

      1. Davi says:

        True, Ken (the way we put up zero challenge Vs City not long ago is practically the same to me), but it’s something that started under AW and I don’t think we’ve managed to solve some of the issues that developed during that time. Those big defeats are/were symbolic of how far we’d fallen from Wenger’s early years at arsenal.

  14. The Real Vieira Lynn says:

    Not worthy of a response…thanks ThirdMan and Leno for keeping it real

  15. Dan kit says:

    TBF I can only remember about 4games in my lifetime where I’ve been embarrassed watching us play ,The two 5-1 against Munich the 8-2 against Utd and another 6-2 against Utd in the league cup which was early 90s if I recall ,so I really dont get this whole phantom belief that we were constantly Humiliated under Arsene ,every manager loses heavily in their careers but most do not spend 20 years at one club .
    Silly that fans still try to make out that our greatest manager ever made us look stupid on a constant basis.
    Let’s not forget what we are actually having to witness since he left

    1. Dan kit says:

      Also we have had a lot more memorable nights in Europe than the obvious defeats that keep getting brought up ,some of my favourite memory’s have been watching us with Arsene in charge in the early to mid 2000s .

    2. ken1945 says:

      Let’s hope Vera reads your reply Dan, I do wish that people who don’t want to respond would do just that.

      Like you, I would class your examples as real humiliations – all under AW and no excuses.
      However, there are other classics, the defeat against Birmingham, Swindon, Walsall, Peterborough and Olympiacos (2) being other such games and all under different managers.

      1. Dan kit says:

        The worst one though Ken would have to be the EL final against Chelsea and that was a manager who some on here big up more than the Great Arsene which I find proper weird

      2. The Real Vieira Lynn says:

        Talk about lowering the bar…so let me get this straight, your “breaking news” is that Wenger wasn’t quite as pathetic as some may have suggested…what a revelation…frankly I can’t really remember a lot of chatter focused solely on one-sided “embarrassing” defeats under Arsene, except at the time, but what an interesting way to package a nonsensical argument against an largely invisible enemy…of course we all remember the ManU and the Bayern debacles, but I think you’ve missed the point Ken

        the argument against the the 2nd generation version, versus his earlier incarnation, which was clearly a glorious period in our club’s history, wasn’t something that could be tangibly measured only through the regurgitation of gameday stats and/or match results, as not everything can be summed in such a neat and tidy fashion…that said, I totally understand why you chose this tact because if you adopted a more cerebral and realistic approach you would have to finally come to terms with Wenger’s preeminent role in our organizational descension

        1. jon fox says:

          TRVL. Beautifully put and you have my total agreement , which I hope does not come as too much of a shock to you.

          As I said to Ken in my long post further down, he was ACTUALLY defending Wenger once again, as is his way, even though he kids us and perhaps even himself that he was defending the club instead.

          1. ken1945 says:

            Now here we have two posters, Vera and Jon, who were not going to post, but it now they are – good on you as it calls debating!!!

            Instead of waffling on about whether I am writing about AW or not, why not give your lists of CL humiliations?
            From your posts, there should be many examples, so it shouldn’t take as long as your promised article on AW LOL.
            Of course, once again you both miss the point – getting the facts right about our CL history regarding results/humiliations – but I’m quite happy to wait for your examples.

          2. The Real Vieira Lynn says:

            For the life of me I can’t ever remember reading a barrage of senseless rants about the supposed plethora of humiliating CL defeats, so I’m not sure why you exhausted so much energy attempting to refute such a seemingly innocuous claim

            the very fact you pursued this course of action suggests that you were hellbent on producing some sort of document that would somehow, someway reflect favorably on your former overlord

            the reason I know this is because even though your original premise was predicated on the notion that “We are always told that, from 2008 onwards, our club was subjected to numerous humiliating defeats, in the Champions League, the Premier League and the FA cup”, which I’m not sure was actually a really contentious issue, you made sure to prop-up his stats by including his far more flattering pre-Emirates “heydays”

            face it, you cherry-picked this specific issue to fulfill some sort of twisted preordained agenda, which was likely based on your growing concern over my potentially seminal article about your fallen King

  16. jon fox says:

    This article is described by KEN AS HAVING NO AGENDA BUT HIS AGENDA IS OBVIOUS, SURELY? It is to downplay Wengers poor CL record. KEN has, ever since Wenger ahem, “resigned”, always defended him on countless occasions, so to claim there is no agenda is laughable.
    So Ken, you, I and many others know exactly why you wrote this article!

    I do not even remotely accept his own personally selected premise of a humiliation only being beaten by four or more. It is, as TMJW said, also about how you play in even a smaller defeat. I did not think it a balanced article, as it missed many years out completely and I ask myself why that was so. It chose to concentrate only on Kens personal interpretationof a humiliation being a four plus goal defeat.

    To make my own position perfectly clear, I do NOT even accept that we DID have numerous humiliations. We had SOME but not numerous and Ken was factually correct in saying those four plus goal defeats were versus Bayern Munich, essentially. I merely say our record was far poorer than it should have been over all those years

    I do not think you can separate Arsenal being protected from unfair criticism (which Ken said he was doing) from criticism of Wenger as manager. Remember, he was solely in charge (unlike Emery who was just head coach but did not get the player he wanted, Zaha , but had Pepe foisted on him, whom he did not want).

    Yes, we qualified regularly all those years and credit is due for that. But, 2006 and the Chelea semi apart apart, we never came close to winning and that year, plus the Chelsea semi defeat, we ought to have won with the squad we had but did not do so.

    Of course KEN and I have polar different opinions on Wengers final ten years but I at least have moved on and see little point in STILL raking over old sores.

    But after reading this attempt at a near whitewash, my sense of truth compelled me to write this post. I propose to leave it there though. No doubt KEN WILL COME BACK WITH HIS REPLY, AS IS HIS RIGHT.

    But Ken , I have said many, many, times all I propose to say about Wenger. Each of us knows where the others intractable opinion lies and where it will remain. AND SO REPLY IF YOU WISH, BUT I WILL NOT BE ADDING TO THIS COMMENT ON THIS SUBJECT.

    For I have moved on and am only concerned, as a realist, with now and the near future, not the ancient past.

    1. ken1945 says:

      And then you go and spoil it all by replying to Vera four minutes later Jon!!!

      1. ThirdManJW says:

        I agree Jon. Only Ken can put a positive, unaccountable, spin on Wenger’s final 14 years in the league, 9 years straight without a trophy, and final 7/8 years in Europe. It seems Wenger was ONLY accountable when we were successful!

      2. jon fox says:

        No Ken, the line from Somethin’ Stupid goes thus: “…. spoil it all by saying something stupid like I love you”! Nancy Sinatra did not even know Vera, so could never have sung that line!

        And for that skilful politician like evasion of mine you ought to appaud me! Or pity me! Your choice!

        Anyway WHO is Vera, I see no one on here by that name?

  17. ken1945 says:

    Of course I will come back Jon, because you have misread my intentions completely – in actual fact, you are agreeing with me.
    You say the following:
    “We had some, but not numerous”… that is EXACTLY what I am saying and you are repeating it!!!
    So I thank you for that.

    On to why I did the article – for the truth, which you have agreed with me is not the case, when someone keeps repeating the “numerous humiliations” allegations.
    As a realist and someone who always wants the truth, isn’t it right to call out anyone who is not doing that?
    Finally Jon, this wasn’t about Wenger, as I didn’t mention him once in the article, except to say it wasn’t about him!!!
    How can anyone “whitewash” his failure in the CL!?
    It’s there for all to see, twenty years of trying, two semis and a final, but never able to bring the prize back home.
    I guess you’re going to say that, when I list the “humiliations for each season from 2008 in the PL and FA the fa cup, you’ll say I’m whitewashing him again?
    Here’s a challenge Jon, why don’t YOU go through each season and highlight the” numerous humiliations” based on TMJW’S scoreline analysis?
    That way, there can be no accusation regarding any whitewashing would there?

    Let me know if you are prepared to do this, as I’m sure that, like me, you want our fans to know the real history.

    1. jon fox says:

      Ken, as you have replied and it would be rude of me not at least to acknowlege your dedication in putting together this factually correct piece let me congratulate you for that.

      I do agree that we have not had “numerous actual humiliations” in CL but THAT was not why I wanted to write, as I did actually say. THOUGH I did say that our record was poorer than it ought to have been and THAT is my view.

      I said, if you recall, that my sense of truth compelled me to write and I was and DO challenge your denial that this was about WENGER, MORE THAN ABOUT ARSENAL, though I acknowledge your artful lack of mentioning his name, in general. But some are not so easily fooled as to your true motive .

      IF Ken, you had not spent all the time since he left defending him in every post you have noticed which attacked him, THEN I might have been inclined to believe you .

      But I judge by actions , repeated actions in your case, so you will forgive my sceptism about WHY you actually wrote this piece, even though you may try to kid even yourself about your true motive.

      I AM NOT BUYING IT THOUGH KEN. And that really IS my final word on this subject of WENGER , HOPEFULLY FOR ALL TIME. I really have moved on and assumed you might have done too. Clearly, not so!

      So needless to add I will not be getting involved in your TMJW game analysis challenge of the now “ancient past”!

      ARTICLES ABOUT YOUR PAST EXPERIENCES WHICH YOU HAVE DELIGHTED US WITH DO GO DOWN WELL AND ID WELCOME MORE ON THAT THEME.
      But I am speaking in general terms, not specifics of analysing CL games over approx 20 plus years

      That all being said, I do hope you are keeping well and looking forward to resuming normal life in increasing stages, as I guess we are all looking to do.

  18. ken1945 says:

    Sorry Jon, I forgot to say that I didn’t miss out any season, the reason being that there were no so called humiliations either for or against in those seasons you allude to – no attempt at subversion or whitewash Jon… what would be the point?

  19. Highbury Hero says:

    TMJW congratulations for diverting the topic of the article and change the definition of “numerous humiliating defeats” to suit your agenda.

    You are the one who have been tirelessly preaching with your megaphone how we were losing matches by big score margin. The way you have always painted it is like every time Wenger lost it was for 5 goals or more. You can’t deny that because you have said it “numerous times”.

    You failed again to defend your made up facts when Ken provided real facts (no surprise because we have seen this before “numerous times”) and it looked like you have given up until Lenohappy’s comment which threw you a lifeline by giving you an idea to change the narrative of your original made up facts.

    1. ThirdManJW says:

      As I said, I used big scorelines to save time, and better illustrate my point, but they’re not made up. Facts are facts. Birmingham League Cup final, lost count the amount of times Stoke embarrassed us, Southampton, almost any time we played a quality team away from home, Mourinho completely owning Wenger, and everytime we entered a pressured moment of the season during that last decade, and we’d fall apart! Many more, but I hope these facts help a little.

      My point though, is to always look at the overall picture. 14 years straight in the league failing, 9 years straight without a trophy, last 7/8 years in Europe. Those are huge numbers! All top managers fail here and there, but none to that degree by a country mile. Wenger is the luckiest manager ever at a big club to survive those horrendous runs.

    2. Sid says:

      Agreed! I get we underperformed in Europe repeatedly, but it was not as if we were lambs to slaughter everytime! We had 3 goal, 4 goal defeats but they were rare. But some posts here have then conveniently changed there definitions of humiliations. One thing I remember is that during recent defeats to big clubs, people were happy that we did not lose by more than 1 or 2 goals. So if it is not the scoreline, then care to explain what criteria is defining the humilation? Because we see a lot of humiliations this season too, with long term records being broken.

  20. Sid says:

    Great article sir! As always a very detailed analysis. I am puzzled though, as you did not include that Milan defeat? That was a Four goal defeat if I am not mistaken (though the comeback almost made me believe we were winning that season. Strange our fellow London club took inspiration from that and won the CL that season.)

  21. ken1945 says:

    Sid, I think it was because over the two legs, it was 3-4.
    I agree how the article has taken a different direction, it always does when people read what they want to read and move the goal posts to suit their argument.

    1. Sid says:

      Yep, got that. Thanks for the explanation, Ken.

    2. jon fox says:

      KEN,I had to reply to THIS post as your final sentence is SO TRUE and sums up how fan sites work. We were told by Ad PAT, if you recall, to keep to Arsenal subjects -though that seems to have been forgotten now – but trying to keep humans to the subject of what SOMEONE ELSE, who wrote whichever article is being discussed, is an impossible and even IMO an undesirable ambition.
      Free speech to write as one pleases (with certain qualifications, no filth etc. of course) is vital!

      After all Ken, if we are all honest with ourselves , we all have our own agendas and will naturally wish to air them, whatever the subject is supposedly about.

      And we are almost all skilled in doing so too, being humans! Just the way our species is, old chum. Don’t you agree? To extend this theme, I suggest strongly that most of us move goalposts constantly, in everyday life every bit as much as on JA.
      This is just natural, normal, human behaviour and encompasses hypocrisy too at times But its normal! Agree or not?

      Watching peoples behaviour and commenting on it is to my mind far more fascinating than discussing who we should pick/ drop/ buy/ sell etc!

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