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I hope Ramsdale turns out to be as good as Arsenal Invincible Jens Lehmann

Goalkeepers since David “Safe Hands” Seaman by ken1945

One of the things I really like about Just Arsenal, is the difference of opinions from dedicated Arsenal supporters.

One of these was the claim that Jens Lehmann, one of our Invincible players, was described as being “never much of a keeper” and was a disaster in his first season, when we were Invincible.

I looked at the keepers we have signed since Safe Hands hung up his gloves and was surprised at how many there were.

Jens Lehmann – Emiliano Viviano – Runar Alex Runarsson – Vito Mannone – Matt Macey – Matthew Ryan – Lukasz Fabianski – Manuel Almunia – David Ospina – Emi Martinez – Bernd Leno – Peter Cech – Wojciech Szczesny – Aaron Ramsdale…. A total of 13 (14?) keepers!!

That also made me look closer at the view that Lehmann was “never much of a keeper” and was a disaster in his first season – the season he played every PL game for the Invincibles.

During that epic season, he let in 26 goals, the lowest in the PL and the following year (when he “improved”) he let in 36 goals.

He cost The Arsenal £1.5 million.

Jens has 61 international caps for Germany and holds the record for the most consecutive clean sheets in European competitions (10) and was voted UEFA Keeper of the Year twice.

Of course, Jens had his weak areas, including his, often volatile, temper tantrums both on and off the pitch.

But there can be no doubt, in my opinion, that he commanded his area, played his part from the start of his Arsenal career and upset many players of our opponents.

One such example was when he won a duel with Terry Sheringham, only to be called a c*** by the forward. Not knowing what it meant he asked for clarification at half time!!

Any Arsenal player who upset Teddy, is a hero as far as I’m concerned.

In summary, I have always believed that there was not a single weak link in the Invincible squad, and every player had their personal style that AW honed into a squad that got their strength from each other.

Jens Lehmann was an integral part of that brilliant squad and I suggest one reads the interview that he had with Martin Keown in order to see how Jens was viewed by Martin… quite an eye opener.

Of course, I appreciate that others might have a different opinion and, as I said above, that’s what makes JA such a great site… I hope Aaron Ramsdale has the same kind of career stats that Jens Lehmann had.

Would love to read pjennings thoughts on Lehmann by the way.

ken1945

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62 Comments

  1. Thanks for setting up the Martin / Jens interview Pat – I hope fans will click on it, as it gives a REAL insight into Martin, Jen and Arsene.

        2. Ken, the interview is priceless. Some rollicking good yarns. Martin was my kind of defender. He loved a large tackle. I better rephrase that. He liked tackling as did I. Stopping the opposition from scoring is something our current lads should crave more. Not keeping a clean sheet should anger them, but I don’t think it does.
          Jens was considered to be a very thoughtful guy off the pitch, but could be a little madcap on it, as you know.
          Ramsdale is a brilliant shotstopper although I thought he should have saved De Bruyne’s last week. He will become a legend for one reason or the other and he will keep improving. I think he switches off sometimes when he has too much time to think. eg what he did leading up to Alcarez’ goal. He nearly did a similar thing against Chelsea. He is a total nutcase but loveable and bound to improve. I wouldn’t swap him for any of the other goalies in the Prem.

        3. I made the point the other day
          You don’t play every League game and not lose once in a season if you were ‘ never much of a keeper ‘

          1. I never said he wasn’t ‘much of a keeper’, I said he was dire in his first season. I stick by that. I really couldn’t care less what cap’n one-eye thinks about Lehmann, according to him every Arsenal player that ever lived is a walking legend.

            As for the video, show me one of those, ever, where the old boys reunions aren’t a love in and I’ll be truly shocked.

            Oh and btw, and nice one to ken for trying to show me up for having a different opinion to you. I thought I’d left that sort of shit behind – when I was still in primary school.

            If that’s the way the game is played here, you can keep it.

            1. Actually you did say he wasn’t much of a keeper – check it out.

              I’m not trying to “show you up”, rather applauding the diverse opinions that true Arsenal supporters (that’s how I see you) can have, while discussing them on JA.

              You were quite correct in saying that there were no quotes from Sol about Jens, that was my mistake.
              But likewise, I couldn’t find the quote that said Sol wanted to kick Jen’s head in.

              Your reference to primary school is disappointing, as I thought debating thoughts and ideas was for mature Arsenal supporters.

              Let’s hope we see eye to eye on other topics and feel we can question each other if the occasion arises, without the need to get personal.

            2. Marge I don’t know if you will notice my message to you and Ken. Scroll down the whole page please.

            3. You did that say that and again ‘ dire In his first season ?’
              Can you play every game and not lose in the League and be dire ?

        4. A bit more about the interview Ken. Wouldn’t it have been wonderful to be part of those momentous events they had back then. I can well believe refs favouring those horrible Man U players, but I think they were afraid of Ferguson more, why, I do not know. Martin Keown is a very interesting guy to listen to and one of the most sensible pundits. It’s highly likely that players get into brawls in the dressing room because most of them have egos that don’t react well to critcism. I’ve never heard good things about Teddy Sherringham ! . I can tell you some stories about some of them.
          I knew and played against Ian Wright in the 80’s.

          1. Look you two, you are the very best of people on this site so this just isn’t necessary.
            I blame Admin Pat for allowing this topic to be
            re-opened ! She’s already done me in once today.
            By the way please remind me never to get in an argument with either of you, I know I’d lose.
            Love you both.
            xxx

          2. Now there’s a story in it’s own right – played against Wrighty?!?!
            Tell us all more in an article please!!!

            1. Ken I’d have to be very careful about what I say because this is a public platform.

        1. Admin Pat, I don’t understand your message. The word is “pokery” not “poker”. Do you need me to explain what it means, or is it that you didn’t read the elaborate exchanges yesterday ? There were some good posts from two of our doyens.
          I do,however feel somewhat blessed and honoured that for the very first time you have responded to a message of mine. Usually never call, you never write and I always feel crestfallen when you ignore me so brutally.
          As an aside, I have a great lyric for our fans to sing at the Emirates. I wonder if it will ever catch on. It goes –
          “Admin Pat, Admin Pat”
          “Do you really look like that”
          Great isn’t it. Genious I’d say.

          1. @Everton
            I must say I have been impressed with your mature contributions since you deigned to join in the discussions, but I’m afraid I will cannot credit your poetry skills so far, so chatting me up is not an option for the moment I’m afraid…..

              1. Admin Pat, by the way, now everyone thinks I’m a Toffee thanks to you. Is Pat Junior a Mini-Me version of you ? I’m not expecting a reply.

                1. EvGunner
                  I’m sure I saw you actually tell everyone your name, so obviously not everyone read it!
                  Apologies

                  And—– He is, but just a bit taller!

                  1. And I thought I was having a private dialogue with Marge at the time. Didn’t realise the world and his dog would be even interested to notice the badinage. One thing though, you’ve now answered a previously unanswered question and confirmed that you do monitor and read everything !
                    Hang on a minute, did you say “he” is a bit taller? Are you therefore saying you are a gentleman. You know MiniMe has to be someone of the same sex as you.. Blimey.
                    My geraniums don’t like all this wet weather.

                    2. Ha ha very good Jax, I see the joke. That’s the first time you’ve ever contacted me, so you must be another voyeur who usually just listens in. Bit kinky that.

                    3. At the risk of you thinking me interfering in a private conversation, albeit one on a public fan site, I had suspected you were barking up the wrong tree in thinking Pat was female.Or else indulging in cheeky banter, though I was not sure which IT WAS, UNTIL NOW.

                      It IS a mans name too you know and AD PAT IS CERTAINLY A MALE.

  2. Lehmann was class. Made one of the best saves I’ve ever seen vs solskjaer. Never understood why some people don’t rate him. Imo he was among the top gks in world football – not the best of the best, but wouldn’t look out of place in any team (and certainly didn’t in ours!).
    I also liked his madness – he was just very protective of his players (particularly Cole)

    1. I remember that save and watching Solskjaer’s mouth “How did he save that”?

  3. Lehmann was a great GK and we wouldn’t have won EPL without him. If I’m not mistaken, he was also excellent in penalty situations

    Ramsdale is young, so he still has plenty of time to improve his abilities. We just need to ease his burden by trusting Turner or Hein more in the knockout competitions

    Ramsdale has great distribution skills, but he only has Saka to receive his long passes. If he had another strong teammate to receive his long balls, he would’ve been able to escape from the opposition’s high press more often

  4. Ken, I think you will agree that the demands placed on goalkeepers,indeed defenders as a whole are much greater than they were in days gone by , by virtue of the demands to play out from the back to retain possession, best opposition pressing etc.From memory Lehmann was a physical presence who dominated his box and instilled confidence in his defensive team mates but how would he have coped in the role of the additional outfielder which is effectively what keepers have become in today’s game?On this subject I wonder how many goals are directly attributed to “cock ups” arising from keeper errors in trying to play out from the back.I seem to witness half a dozen every week which makes me wonder if the tactic is really worthwhile?

    1. Grandad, I’m not sure ANY of the previous goalkeeping greats would be able to play in the role today.
      Of course it’s only a guess, but we haven’t seen how someone like Leno struggled to adapt to the new requirements that modern day keepers have to have.
      I guess that also applies to every position in the game today though.
      The thought of George Graham rushing back to help defend, or John Radford switching across the front line and setting up others (both great players in their day of course) is an image I find impossible to conjure up.

      One player I know we both admire, Tierney, has suffered a lot trying to adapt to MA’s insistence that he changes his style and it was so pleasing to see him come on against chelsea and actually defend!!

      The only keeper who I think would be adaptable from our past keepers is Pat Jennings, simply because he could find outfield players at ease with a throw, and turn defence into attack with one almighty kick!!!

      Times have changed and your question about the tactics being worthwhile?
      All I can say is, I am a nervous wreck everytime we do it!!

      1. The approach is absolutely worthwhile in the larger scheme of things at the top level. Unless you have a team that is ridiculously strong elsewhere in the team your goalkeeper needs to be comfortable passing and playing out from the back.
        Of course there will be mistakes which is the risk you have to take in order to achieve success over the long term. To reduce mistakes the team obviously need to train and practice relentlessly.

  5. Although he’s been popular overall, I get the feeling some Gooners still have reservations about Ramsdale. I do not. For his age he’s an awesome keeper, and will get better until he reaches a very high ceiling. Higher than Lehman. Maybe even eventually rivalling David Seaman in Arsenal status.

    1. Yossarian, I completely agree, that to my mind, some of our own fans rather odd reservations about RAMSDALE- a keeper I rate very high and certain to improve further as he gets older- is very strange and to my mind completely misplaced, verging on some of them having a clear agenda of their own, instead of being totally honest in what they write.

  6. As usual Grandad, very interesting points. Many goalies end up picking the ball out of their own net because they and their defenders are too intent on messing about with risky and sometimes darn right stupid manoeuvres at the back. It is one of the most annoying things for me to endure. Puts me on edge because most of them don’t really look comfortable playing that way, and what does it really achieve most of the time? Wastes time and too risky.

  7. I’ve seen some great Arsenal keepers: Kelsey, Wilson, Jennings & Seaman, and some very good keepers, which is where Jens fits, along with: Furnell, Rimmer, Lukic & Cech. At the moment I’d put Ramsdale in the “good” bracket, but he’s so young in goalkeeper years that he has time to develop into a great.
    Once he gets his shot-stopping sorted he’ll be on the way.

    1. JAX, so you seriously rate Furnell as being among our “very good keepers”??.

      All I can say to that opinion is that I have read some peaches of “left field opinions” on JA but coming from an older fan such as you, who would certainly have seen him play for quite some time, I find that an astounding opinion.

      And as you consider Ramsdale only “good” but Furnell to be”very good”, I would LOVE Ad Pat to invite all we older fans to rate all our keepers as to our best and worst.
      I’ll gladly wager you that most of we older fans would put Furnell among our very poorer keepers. Just my take!

      To my mind, he is certainly in the worst three we have had to suffer since I started attending regularly back in 1958.

      Burns and Almunia would be the only two I consider WORSE than Fingers Furnell. Being worse is JUST possible, but only JUST!

      1. Jon surely you can’t have forgotten the terrible twosome John McClelland & Ian McKechnie from 1963/4 season who were replaced by Furnell, who was then first choice for five years, a fan favourite, and in my memory “very good” by comparison to his goalkeeping peers, and obviously can’t be compared to today’s keepers where I’m probably being a bit unkind to Ramsdale in rating him only “good”.
        Richard Wright wasn’t so great either was he?

        1. Jax Yes I did indeed overlook those two you list who were, I agree, even worse than Fingers! I began going in 1958 when KELSEY was our star keeper .

          Thereafter, until Wilson- formerly known as Wobbly Wilson,but massivelyu improved from his previous standard and incredibly so(think XAKA, BUT THRICE AS MUCH) – we had IMO, not even an adequate keeper till he took over the keeping in the late pre-double season of 1969-70.

          For my first eleven years as a Gooner, apart from Kelsey, who retired after injuring his back playing for Wales, in the WC of 1962, we had a reputation for plain awful keepers.

          However,apart from one or two since Wilson retired we have had almost exclusively either GOOD, VERY GOOD, OR EXCELLENT KEEPERS EVER SINCE.

          Apart from the catastrophic Wenger decision to keep that duff and dreadful Almunia in goal all that wasted and frustrating time. I was always mystified by Wengers refusal to find a better keeper than the woeful Spanish waiter, as were countless other of our fans. Ithought Taylor and Wright both just adequate but neither would havew stayewd long IF I WER MMANAGER, as I am someone who all my long life has given far more importance to PROPER SPECIALIST DEFENDERS AND TOP CLASS KEEPERS than someof our managers, notably Wenger, ever did. In AW’s case I refer only to his inability to find TOP CLASS CB’s, with a few exceptions only, in his 22 years here.
          I speak only of our first choice keepers and not occasional reserves, who deputised for injured first choices.

          You could count Burns as only a reserve really, even though I included him in my original post of duff keepers.
          Almunia apart, I consider George Wood as our worst since Furnell, though Wood was still miles better than the woeful Fingers, in my book.

          I would agree to the extent of saying Fingers was an upgrade on his two predecessors, neither of whom were here for long,at least as first choices, however. So being an improvement on “them” was not saying much at all.

          1. Jon, I used to avoid the North Bank, but did know a character who was very prominent in just about everything good and bad that went on there…Denton…did you know him?

            1. Jax, I knew about him , as he was widely known, but went out of my way to avoid being drawn into any of the male testosterone excess led nonsense that infested our and all other clubs, esp in the 1970s/80s.
              I had and have nothing but scorn and a sort of hopeless pity for any person,whether football person or otherwise, who glorifies in violence and hating other clubs and other people generally.

              That sort of low IQ mob mentality fuels wars and hatreds. As a peaceful and intelligent man, I completely disassociate myself from it. I did so then and I DO SO NOW.

              To pay gate money to watch your team but to then spend your time during the game seeking a fight, is the lowest sort of mentality I can imagine, frankly.

            2. EvGunner, his name was Dainton. Done well for himself, starting out as a scaffolder and ended up head of security for the Pet Shop Boys. Tragically drowned in Moscow on the 5/10/07.

              RIP The Bear.

                1. Dainton! knew it was something like that. I didn’t know of his drowning. Very sad. Thanks for the info HD.

              2. HD, I know that message wasn’t for me, but I wonder if Dainton was related to that lovely old B-movie British actress of the ’50s, Patricia Dainton. On second thoughts, nah, probably not. Sorry just being silly.

      2. Jon, I’ll upgrade Ramsdale to “very good” following yesterday’s terrific performance.

  8. KEN , whilst firmly agreeing with you about Lehmann being a top class Arsenal keeper, I haverto point out that five of those who you list as following him, are just bit part players and were second string only, who played very little.

    I would just about accept OSPINA as not really a true second string and thought him at least decent, though never really first choice, except occasionally.

    Such as Viviano, Runarsson, Mannone , Macey, Ryan will only be remembered by real anoraks of our history such as you, I, and a few others of us.

    They are all very forgettable, I’d suggest.

    I only wish Almunia were forgettable too but sadly he lingers in my memory as possibly our worst ever actual first choice keeper who, incredibly, managed to stay around far too long.

    1. As part of looking at into the goalkeepers since the departure of David Seaman, Iwas surprised to see the number we had signed.
      I didn’t rank them in any order, but I do agree with you about Furnell – but he did have a great personality!!

      1. KEN back in Furnels time, I used rto stand right down thrfront of thr North Bansk near an old female fan called Old Flo Burgess, who used to go on all the coaches away trips, which is how I knew her.

        She was a great character and all the players and club knew her, as did all we Supporters Club away fans.In the pre match warm upo she would shout “Jimmy, Jimmy” and Fingers would turn and wave, whereupon she would thow him a toffee or some sweet.

        I agree he was a great personality but a lousy keeper, esp when judged against someof our greats like Seaman Kelsey, Jennings etc.

    2. Jon Fox – Re: Admin Pat. Thanks for your message. All of this is good banter to me because I’m usually such a miserable old codger that it comes as good therapy. I suppose you’re going to tell me that you’re not really a fox next. Sorry, I’ve got the giggles now as little things do please my little mind. Cheers.

      1. EvGunner, although some on JA will be amazed to learn this , but I too, when away from JA, try not to take myself or life too seriously and enjoy being and acting “silly”. It is great therapy for an older person in not losing touch with our inner child.

        Nearly all we oldies all have it in us but some are too stuffy to wish to ever show it or to admit it, even to themselves. That is a shame, I feel. Giggling is great fun!

        My own preference is for delightfully daft and absurd word play and as Ronnie Barker often indulged in, ” pisprununcation of worms”!

        1. Jon, thanks for that. Appreciated. e-mails generally can be deadly misleading as until now, I always thought you might be a bit of a tough guy all the time. It’s good to know humour is in us. But I wasn’t joking when I more or less said I can be a miserable bastard at times. Don’t like alot of what’s happening in the world. Ofcourse that’s another story which I wouldn’t dream of boring you with. If the beautiful Admin Pat dares to respond to yesterday’s last message, an earful will follow.

        2. Thanks for that Jon. Much appreciated. I messaged you twenty minutes ago but I think they’ve disallowed it (possibly because I called myself a bastard !). Is that off-side ?
          e-mails can be misleading as previously I thought you might be a tough cookie all the time. That’s probably a lack of understanding on my part.
          Although I like a laugh, I can be overly morose and miserable. Don’t like alot of what is happening in the world I’m afraid. Probably not alone there. Anyway, we’ve got a big day ahead, so let’s hope the lads make us happy this afternoon. Cheers.

        3. Jon, I’ve messaged you twice but each time it’s ‘t been disallowed. Maybe because of an innocent but legitimate word I’ve been using. I’ll try one more time if Admin continue to ignore me.

        4. I’ll try again Jon. Appreciate your message. emails can be misleading. I myself, am sometimes overly morose and quite miserable so it’s good to laugh, (at this point in my previous messages to you, I called myself a name which, let’s say, is the opposite word to “legitimate”).
          I think that’s why I got called off-side and the post was disallowed. Modern technology….grrrrr.
          I still think Admin Pat’s a lovely looking lass !!!!
          who should change her attire every now and again though.

        5. Jon, You’ve probably been inundated. I thought you weren’t receiving the mail because I was getting a message about a possible censure. Then when I didn’t see it attached to your name I thought it didn’t reach you. However, I’ve just seen them all below the “Leave a Reply” box level. Told you I’m easily confused.

  9. Anyone who says Jens wasn’t much a keeper and his first season was underwhelming lives in alternate universe.

    1. HH I could not agree more. How an unbeaten keeper(in matches) all season can still be criticised by SOME, is laughable or would be, were they not so wrong and ridiculous.

  12. I believe this performance by Aaron Ramsdale today vs Newcastle united answers everyone doubting is qualiti

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