Mikel Arteta was used to being humiliated under Wenger? Here are the facts


In a recent article, the claim was made that, under Arsene Wenger, “MA played in teams that were battered and humiliated fairly often”.

This experience, it was claimed, would help MA in his position as our manager, to be aware of these experiences and help ensure they would not to be part of his managerial CV.

I was puzzled by this, seemingly, re-writing of our history, so I went on to Wikipedia and our own official website to check this out, looking at each season he was at the club and what the review of said seasons actually recalled regarding “humiliating defeats and battering” per se.

Let’s just recap where we finished in each of those seasons in the PL, FA cup and CL…

1. 11/12 season 3rd – 5th round – K/O stages
2. 12/13 season 4th – 5th round – K/O stages
3. 13/14 season 4th _ Winners – K/O stages
4. 14/15 season 3rd – Winners – K/O stages
5. 15/16 season 2nd – 6th round – K/O stages

Now, let’s fill in those facts, with a little more detail, season by season:

1. The 11/12 season, we were definitely humiliated 8-2 at Old Trafford, BUT MIKEL WASN’T EVEN IN THE SQUAD THAT DAY!! In fact, he wasn’t even signed by Arsenal until three days AFTER the game! Nevertheless a bad, bad day for the club, but it wouldn’t affect Mikel’s CV would it?

These facts would though, during that season we beat Chelsea away 5-3, Blackburn at home 7-1, Spuds at home 5-2, Wolves away 3-0 and ended up with a +25-goal average (with Arteta in the squad)

We were knocked out of the CL 4-3 on aggregate by AC Milan, after losing 4-0 in Italy and nearly staging an incredible comeback in the second leg.

2. The 12/13 season, where we had the second-best defensive record in the PL (compared to 8th the season before) and conceded just 14 goals in the away games – our best away defensive record since the 2003/04 season. We kept 14 clean sheets during the campaign, nine away from home and yet we are told that Arsene never had a proper defence since the Invincibles!!!!

PLEASE read and digest these facts, and we also beat Newcastle 7-3, Reading 5-2, the spuds 5-2 once again, and The Saints 6-1… there were no “humiliating defeats”, rather humiliating victories by us and defensive brilliance… supposedly with “dross” defenders I might add!!!!

However, there was an upset as we lost 0-1 to Blackburn in the FA cup, considering the defence we had.

We played and lost to Bayern Munich, a 3-1 defeat at home, but a 2-0 win at their ground, becoming the first team to beat them there that season. Bayern went on to win the CL this season.

3. The 13/14 season did see some “humiliating” defeats in the PL, 6-3 to City, 6-0 to Chelsea and 5-1 to Pool. No arguments from me, as I remember them well and still squirm with embarrassment!!
The remarkable thing is though, we still ended up with 68 goals for and 41 against, while finishing fourth in the PL and qualifying for the CL once again. Mental strength there I suggest?

We did beat Liverpool in the FA cup 2-1 and the Spuds 2-0, while lifting the FA cup, so our blushes were hidden as we all celebrated our Final win against Hull City.

The CL once again saw us playing Bayern Munich, where we lost 2-0 at home and drew 1-1 away.

4. The 14/15 season saw us beat Man City 2-0 away, beat Villa 4-0 at home and Pool at home 4-1.

We beat Manure away in the 6th round of the FA cup as we retained the trophy with a humiliating defeat of Aston Villa by 4-0 and Mikel lifted the famous trophy as our captain, how he must have had THAT in his mind when beating Chelsea in the same competition recently.

The CL saw us, surprisingly lose to AS Monaco on away goals 3-3. A humiliating defeat? Maybe, but not according to Wikipedia or our website.

5. The 15/16 season, where we finished 2nd to Leicester and we beat City 2-0 away, Villa 5-0 at home and 3-0 away and Pool at home 4-1.

In the FA cup, we lost to Watford in the game renowned for us not having any cojones!!!

The CL saw us win 2-0 at home, but 5-1 away to Bayern Munich (humiliation) in the group stages. Nevertheless, we progressed to the K/O stages and met Barcelona, losing both legs 0-2 and 1-3.

So, in summary, during the time that Mikel Arteta played under Arsene Wenger, the “batterings and humiliations” were very far between in his 110 games for the Gunners, and not as claimed a “fairly regular” occurrence.

Why did I find this important to follow up?

Simple really, it’s all about getting the factual history of our club correct in my humble opinion.

Be as kind or unkind as you want in your comments.


N.B. Something else that came out of this exercise, was the false claim that AW never had a defence after the Invincibles – but as this claim has been made so many times, it has become folklore in the minds of many!!! Another fact over fiction that needs to be recognised.

In actual fact, in the PL, Wenger’s average “goals against” over the 22 years, works out at 37.2 goals a season – GG, the master of defensive tactics averaged 36.3 a season over his 9-year stay. FACT!



  1. It is very respectable that you took the time and effort to actually look after data and don’t just recycle unsubstantiated rubbish. We live in a world that doesn’t care about facts and objectivity. It’s refreshing to come across a balanced, fact based view. I absolutely concur.

  2. We’ll come right. Over the Christmas period we’ll get maximum points. All Injured players will be fit. Chambers Mari, martinelli

  3. Loved the article, but must point out that the average goals against for a season that you’ve quoted between Wenger and Graham eras need to take into account the modern 38 game format, as appose to the older 42 game season, hence lowering that Graham figure.
    Just me being pedantic I guess but hey

  4. Artea ‘s greatest memory of Arsenal is that if he passed the ball backwards and sideways ten million times and was totally loyal to Wenger he would be rewarded with the captaincy. Now to me that is what Arteta expects of his players total loyalty to the manager and complete compliance with the system. Under Pep Guardiola Arteta learned that buying 20 world class players of your choice leads to trophies galore. But Arsenal today is no where near Artetas team of choice unlike Wenger who had complete control over transfers coaching and probably
    the whole club. So Wenger Sanllehi Mislintat Gazidis Edu Venkatesham have left Artea and Emery before him with 3 mega expensive but misfiring strikers little or no midfield and a slew of dross on long term contracts. It will be at least the summer of 2023 before Arteta gets the team of his choice. Something about pushing water uphill with a rake comes to mind. Top 6 will be a decent finish for Arteta’s troops with the EL the best chance of Champions league

    1. Wyoming we will now have Real Madrid and Inter Milan in the EL so it will now be even harder to win EL

  5. An article from Ken about Wenger is an academic exercise we all know his judgment on went,he can’t review his own judgement about wenger.Look the article starts with headline of Arteta and Wenger but concludes Wengerr was messiah

    1. what a load of crap

      In a recent article, the claim was made that, under Arsene Wenger, “MA played in teams that were battered and humiliated fairly often”.

      This experience, it was claimed, would help MA in his position as our manager, to be aware of these experiences and help ensure they would not to be part of his managerial CV.

      This article is about MA and to counter the notion MA was used to getting battered by results, league position and cup wins / loses.

      It definitely doenst conclude that Ken thinks AW was a messiah

    2. Oh my lordship! What crass comments. This article is well considered, well delivered and is full of fact not the falsehoods that many on here lap up on a daily basis. It does not, in any way, proclaim AW a messiah!

    3. Lord Deninng, is that the new username that you have been using?Reading your comments makes me think of someone else even though the language, arrogance.. have been dialled down it has to be said, so what were the previous message ones you used oly on this site!! Thanks

      1. Put in your place there methinks Lord Denning – recognising the topic and reading the article might hlep? Just a suggestion M’lud!!

  6. Arteta was average but good on his day . I actually loved him at Everton. But he join our honoured injury list and if I remember correctly there was a period when arteta scored own goals for fun in arteta at least 3 consecutive matches. Lol

  7. Ken’s usual spin!

    Finishing 20/30/40 pts off the top is still a fantastic season, as long as we get that 4th place trophy haha!

    Hey Ken, given how great you keep saying Ozil is, what top club will come in for him on a free? Juventus, Real return, Barca, Bayern? Haha

    1. All I’m doing is correcting two of your errors TMJW by using facts from our club, rather than prejudiced and unfounded claims.

      If that’s spinning, then I’m a spinning top.

      As for finishing 40 points behind etc etc if Mikel achieves that this year and gets us CL football, along with a fa cup victory, then I would certainly class it as a successful season – wouldn’t you?

      1. It would be a decent season, but I wouldn’t be saying that after 3 years, 6 years, 10 years, 14 years! Haha

        1. TMJW, glad you have let go on your two claims regarding MA/Aw and our so called non existent defence, now let’s look at your latest claim…I’ll do the homework for you once again.

          2009/10 -11 points behind Man Utd and finishing 3th
          2010/11 – 12 points behind Man Utd and finishing 4th
          2011/12 – 19 points behind Man City and finishing 3rd
          2012/13 – 16 points behind Man Utd and finishing 4th.
          2013/14 – 12 points behind Chelsea and finishing 4th
          2014/15 – 8 points behind Chelsea and finishing 3rd
          2015/16 – 10 points behind Leicester and finishing 2nd
          2016/17 – 18 points behind Chelsea and finishing 5th
          2017/18 – 37 points behind Man City and finishing 6th.

          Now the last season, when AW left, second placed manure finished 19 points behind City, third placed spuds 23 points, fourth placed pool 25 points and 5th placed Chelsea 30 points.
          Not that that is any excuse for AW”s woeful last season in charge, but one should recognize just how far City were ahead of ALL OPPOSITION in that 17/18 season.
          By the way, the 7th placed side were 46 points behind the champions, who, having lost two games, were still unable to claim the title of “Invincibles”. Just for the record.

          Now the 2018/19 season under UE, the points gap was 28 to City, second worse only to AW’s 37 point difference and the 2019/20 season under UE/FL and MA was 43 points versus Liverpool, so this result was by far and away, the worst of all (we all know their were circumstances that can explain that of course) the trend that Dan keeps talking about.

          So, by just taking a while to check the facts, TMJW it becomes apparent once again, that you are just inventing fictional figures and situations in order to advance your theories – everyone and his dog, including AW himself, have said he stayed to long, but making up and insinuating his time from the end of 2008 was a disaster is just plain daft.
          Your 20/30/40 example is relevant just once – his final season, when City swept the board.

          Was I happy with the situation? NO< but I realized exactly what AW was up against with the oil money, the power of manure, the russian roubles and kronkie as the owner – you seem to have taken not one of these in to consideration in your never ending drivel about our most successful manager ever…who, of course, made some awful errors of judgement himself.

          It is the "impact" since then and that 43 point last season difference, despite spending over £2000,000 on new players, that is the ACTUAL and CURRENT problem you should be addressing, not going on about someone who left nigh on three years ago and a player who will leave in June!!!

          By the way, I hope you are a SUCCESSFUL business manager, just as successful, in fact, as AW, UE, FL, MA and MO have been in their careers!!!

          1. Hahaha, Ken’s usual pathetic spin!

            The simple fact is that Wenger went 14 years in a row of not even being competitive in the league! You keep banging on about facts, well that’s the biggest FACT of them all!

            1. TMJW, keep making yourself look like someone who has no idea about our club and it’s place in the PL.

              One can only try to educate someone for a certain time, but if said person is so entrenched in his/her views by ignoring the facts, there is no point trying any more.

              1. Oh poor Ken, so you DO believe 14 years of rubbish in the league is acceptable! WOW! Well we might as get Wenger back then.

                1. Please do try and act maturely TMJW, your article has been pulled apart by factual evidence, so you try spinning it to something else.

                  Just read the comments and you will realise that you have been found out – I look forward to scrutinising your next article for more mistakes and idiotic view’s about our club.

            2. what have you been watching?

              10/11 we were 5 points behind Man Utd at one stage…we lost our mental and determination, it came crumpling

              that is the season we lost three so call ‘not good enough players’ Glichey, Nazri and Fabregas…… 2 creative and scoring players

              11/12 Another ‘not good enough player’ RVP became top scorer with 30 goals….we could have achieve more if we had kept our Glichey, Nazri and Fabregas, the backbone of the team

              12/13 Ozil, Santi and Giroud were signed. RVP fire Utd to the title despite leaking crazy amount of goals. Can you imagine what would have happen if RVP had stay on for just one more season with Santi and Ozil creating the goals and Giroud laying off the goals for RVP

              the same goes for 13/14, 14/15 and 15/16 lacking of a striker to score the extra 10 goals to win us the league……If Dein was around he would get the player….

              Not to mention 2007/8 season we were playing tika football, teams had to play physical to stop us, Eduardo got injured and season over

      2. Ken I wouldn’t worry or even bother responding to this glass hammer!

        You gave a great article, well founded and deep in research, you should be proud of what you have wrote

        1. Thanks Val, but when someone makes these kinds of statements about people who can’t defend themselves personally, I just can’t help but respond.

          Some of these fans think that, by keep repeating falsehoods and using CAPITAL LETTERS to demean other fans for their own opinions, it is quite a feeling to call them out with facts.

          I’m too bloody old and contrary to be affected by them and as I am now officially one of the worst ever Arsenal fans (according to TMJW) I will have to keep up my image. LOL

    2. By the time he ends up at any of those clubs in June, you will still have no shame to admit that you actually know nothing but hatred.

    3. Just like your thoughts on UE, let’s wait and see come June shall we regarding MO shall we TMJW?
      After all, you track record on or managers and our clubs history is about as good as your thoughts regarding our players!! haha

  8. @Ken
    I am sure. you have put a lot of work into this. Well done.
    Just one comment though.
    AW’s regime was, as nearly all recognize, a two sided affair. Great succes followed by not so much success. When you want to say the downturn began is a matter of opinion.
    But as for the goals against:
    In Wegers last 10 seasons we averaged 40,5 goals against. So if we take your word for his total average, it basically shows the same thing.
    A great defence in the first period of his tenure. Not so great in the second.

    1. Also it would be a good idea that our midfield in the first half of AW’s tenure was the best we imo have ever had, lots of security for that already awesome defence.

      After that we basically had the borrowers in midfield ( not taking anything away from their technical ability here)

    2. AndersS, of course I agree with your summing up of AW’s time at the club – who could ever have lived with his success up to 2008?
      It is the second part that we need to look at and appreciate what was going on in the PL and at our club itself.
      As for the GA, again I have to agree with you, but that 12/13 season regarding our defence has to be acknowledged surely?

      Especially, if we go along with the claim that we never had a defence since the Invincibles and that nearly every defender has been “dross, lazy and mentally frail” since then!!

      Thanks for the compliment as well as the reply my friend.

      1. ken1945
        It is not my personal opinion, we never had a defence since the invincibles, nor that we didn’t have good defenders.
        My opinion is, AW in his later years had a bit of a blind eye towards the importance of the modern concept of organizing our whole team, when the opponents have the ball, resulting in our defence constantly coming under too much pressure. This in fact also meant, that we became a club, where almost all our defenders seemed better in their first season, or first few months with the club, and then after a while looked like much lesser players, than they maybe were/are.
        Anyway, that is just my theory.

  9. Well researched article that dealt a heavy blow to lies, deception and propaganda. More power to your elbow.
    That part of our his with cojones cracked me quite well.

  10. Good Article Ken
    The problem with the fans with agendas is that they will always bring up the same heavy defeats which were few and far between for how long he was he .
    Managers will always have heavy defeats on their CVS ,that’s life .
    After 22 years in charge I don’t think he did to shabby did he .

    1. Sue, Gily and Dan, thanks for your replies.

      Gily, as what was being said was a load of BS anyway, the temptation was just to good to miss!!! LOL

    2. Agreed dan not too shabby at all, people can say what they want about wenger pros or cons but the premier league would be a MUCH less interesting league without his presence/impact. I for one am grateful for the memories good or bad, theres plenty of both 👍

      1. Agree Rory
        No matter what fans say about him (even worse our own ) he will go down as one of the greatest to ever grace this league .
        The golden trophy alone is enough for him to go down in folk lore .

  11. Tmjw&the likes should really be ashamed of themselves for constantly cooking up lies inorder to demean the person of wenger.how i wish they can be humble enough to render an apology

  12. Thank you very much Ken for a well researched article. Those of us who appreciate facts are indeed grateful for the good work. To those with fixated minds I can only quote that famous playwright who said that, ” It is in vain to talk to him who means not to understand!”

  13. Well researched Ken and puts payed to a ridiculous assumption that Arteta was used to being humiliated. Be honest the rest of you didn’t every Arsenal defeat in those days hurtbecause we still all had confidence that Arsenal were one of the big boys and could best anyone on the day. Do you care as much today? Statistics don’t tell the whole story. During Arteta’s playing days Arsenal were always expected to easily best the lesser teams and we had a reputation for being flat track bullies. Today we sweat over every game including the Europa League small fry. So I have no issue with your argument, but it hides the truth that Arsenal could have done so much better if Wegner had not become such a Kroenke yes man and fought harder to strengthen his team with real, quality players.

    1. Joe. S, now there’s a subject for debate, your last sentence.
      That’s something I can find a lot of agreement with… why not submit your views in a article… the response would be fascinating.

    1. Giroud scored over a hundred goals in five and a half seasons at Arsenal. Fans created a lie that he was a failure.

      1. Its because we didn’t have anyone else. Giroud started week in and week out. Even when he went missing, he would start matches because we had no plan B.

        He literally had ZERO competition as our striker, our main and only striker.

  14. Visiting memory lane and reminiscing on the potential of the 2009/10 squad and we had Van Persie, Nasri, Wiltshire, Ramsey, Walcott, Diaby, Coquiln plus veterans, Fabregas ( gasp ) Arsharvin , Sagna, Clichyand Rosicky, and two bright young gaolkeepers to fill in for the Spanish waiter. What a waste! I know injury destroyed the careers of too many of those players, but wasn’t the rest down to poor management and not covering with some experienced hard bitten veterans. Mind you I’d readily replace all our present forwards with the above lot, with perhaps the possible exception of Saka. The problem then as now was the centre halves, but that group should have been contenders. Come back Edu.

      1. No you’re right. I was being generous,but Saka still have potential so here’s hoping the club looks after him.

  15. Great article @ken….loved every bit of it as it’s facts and figures which don’t lie unlike the words of the likes of jon foxes of this world….
    And I wanna add this …. Why does everyone just tend to forget about the lack of funds during Wenger’s later years when crucifying him….we all know how prudent he was and consistently having to sell his best players….just to pay off the state of art stadium debt which we are all proud of now….. Do you think all this would have bin possible without Wenger….he even said he the bank won’t borrow us money if he didn’t guarantee staying at Arsenal…. That’s trading his career for us…. He said he turned down Madrid twice plus several other big clubs just so this emirate dream can come true and we in turn turn this man to a subject of ridicule…. How many clubs can perform in the premier league with such stringent measures and be that successful attaining top 4 yearly until last 2 seasons despite lack of funding….yet we don’t appreciate this man enough…. Arsenal has spent over 200 million pounds in 2 years…. That has never happened during Wenger’s time…. Yet his team has never bin this shambolic losing 3 home games in a row….I will take losing 8-2 to big clubs like man utd everytime than losing 3 home games in a row to mid table teams….. Have seen other club fans speak highly if their Legends yet here at Arsenal we speak otherwise…. How pathetic….. I STILL INSIST THAT ARSENAL FANS IN ENGLAND NEED TO APOLOGIZE TO WENGER FOR THE EMBARRASSING WAY HE WAS TREATED IN HIS LAST YEARS…..HE DESERVED BETTER…… Can’t believe our Legend has refused to come back to the Emirates he traded his career for just because of the way he was treated….. And for those who keep saying he did it for himself coz he got paid Mega bucks …. Here is fun facts for you…. Do you think if he had taken the Madrid or PSG job he wouldn’t be paid better if not twice what he was earning at Arsenal…..in the end….I will never judge Wenger’s last years on trophies….rather I will judge him on results based on investments….. Which was for me a success…. Having to sell your best players year in year out and stay afloat can be so underestimated and also having to deal with long term injuries to key players constantly…. How about the Klopps and Mourinhos and peps of this world sell their best players every season and work on stringent budget just as Wenger and let’s see the result….I always maintained back then when Wenger was with us that he is the reason we are still this competitive despite lack of proper investment but we took it for granted…. Look at where we are now despite spending a whole lot recently…. You can even argue that the last two years where we couldn’t make the top 4 was due to the very toxic atmosphere at the emirate coz I can’t forget those moment where during games we see Arsene out banners with IN Arsene we trust banners…. You can’t tell me those banners won’t have effect on team mentality and spirit…. How about we try that with Arteta now and see the results coz it’s only choping Ozil out of the squad we have now and we are talking about team spirit been affected not to talk of having consistent banners stating Arteta out…. ARSENE WENGER IS OUR GREATEST MANAGER AND HE DESERVES AN APOLOGY FROM EVERY ARSENAL FANS WHO TREATED HIM THAT BAD….
    dammy from Nigeria….

  16. KEN my questionis not about the facts in your no doubt properly researched article(though Wikipedia is notoriously unreliablein general but that is not my point, since you also used the clubs website which will,be reliable). I question why you thought you needed to write an article in this veinat all. I know as well as many of us and obviously as you do, that many non truths are written as “facts” by those who wish to give their own private agends.

    So, are you saying that MA is or is not worthy to be our manager right now? AND are you confident he will be here next season?


    For what it’s worth, I find that facts rarely change opinions in fan sites, as fans have their own opinions, in all directions and some just want to try changing the opinions of others.


    Bottom line I suppose, is that trying to change the opinion of others, esp of senior age, is a near hopeless task . As the debate Ozil best proves!

    1. kEN I should add that even when facts such as yours are put before us all, most will not remembr them and in a heartbeat, once having read them , most will instantly forget them. I do not diss your worthy attempt to write the truth about the times MA played in humiliating defeats under Wenger but I think , as so many posts from all of us are too, it is really whistling in the dark, for all the good it does.

      But that being said, I do applaud all who have the patience and motivation to pen a properly researched article like this. I merely question its ultimate worthwhileness(no such word!). Basically, I am saying, I suppose, that all of us on here are effectively wasting our time, when we could and SHOULD all be doing something more worthwhile, esp in this bleak time with so many suffering.

  17. Jon, I find your post simply amazing.

    How many times have you berated fan who don’t know the history of our club?
    You are always telling them that your age status means that your views and ideas are based on knowing the facts from the years you have followed the club.

    Now, TMJW obviously doesn’t know the history, as his article was very easily pulled apart by using the clubs history.
    If you remember at the time, I asked you why you hadn’t questioned it either…but you didn’t reply.

    Also Jon, for as long as I can remember, you have been insisting that we never had any defence of consequence since Sol Campbell snd, if you had read my report on the 12/13 season, easliy accessible on the official website, the facts blow your claims completely out of the water.

    You obviously didn’t know that in that season, we kept 14 clean sheets, of which 9 were away from home and we had the second best defensive record inn the PL.

    I would hope that, as you claim to be a realist, this will stop you from also peddling, at the minimum, a distortion of facts?

    These were the reasons why I challenged AND proved that what TMJW wrote and claimed was just completely wrong, as your never ending theory that we had neve had a defence since Sol left, was also wrong.

    That was why I always kept asking you how we still kept top four status…Now Jon, as a realist, surely the time has come to admit you got it wrong?

    I don’t hold out any hope that TMJW will admit he got it wrong, but it will be interesting to see if you will…..and if you do, your question regarding changing of senior fans minds.

    Finally Jon, I have a much better regard of the fans who support JA than you seem to do and, following the comments above, I KNOW that they will remeber Arteta did not suffer numerous defeats under AW and, perhaps more importantly, when they see comments about Aw not having a defence since Sol Campbell, they will know that it is just not true.

    I realized I haven’t answered your MA question – what that has to do with both TMJW and this article I have no idea, but to answer it:
    Of course I support MA and hope he succeeds – what I will not do, however, is just sit back and not question the way we are playing at the moment – as Durand has said, if we judge one person, then we must use the same criteria to judge another….I REALLY DO LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR REPLY ON THIS ONE JON, as I’m sure I have made a realist admit he was wrong and changed his mind.

  18. Still no response Jon, after over two hours – are you checking those defensive figures from the 12/13 season?

    1. Hi KEN apologies for having more in my life than just JA and letting two whole hours go by without a reply. How dreadfulof me!
      First thing to say is thanks for your trademark full and detailed reply. Secondly , in how we evaluate things, you and I react and think very differently. I do not, unlike you , rely so much on merely figures as in goals against. To me, if a defence looks shaky or has holes in it means it is not tight, irrespective of goals conceded. Merely conceding,lets say, the seventh least goals in a season does not, by itself, make that defence the seventh best. I do not judge so much by figures ALONE as you do.

      When the freakishly slow MERTS was here all that time in the team we were always shaky IMO, as Kos usually had to spend time covering for him and spent time when he could have been doing other defensive work instead. AW inherited the fine GG defence and to his credit extended their careers AND he later built his one and only top defence, The INVINCIBLES.

      But apart from those, his long term choice of CB ‘s brought to us was shocking with very few exceptions, going all the way back to Senderos. I need not remind YOU of the long line of duds as you saw them all in the flesh. His fullbacks after the Invincibles, Sagna apart who was IMO merely decent, though not remotely Cole or Lauren class, were little better. I never rated Calamity Clichy at all. And how Almunia stayed three full years as regular God alone and Wenger too knows. The regular worst keeper since Furnell and probably worse even than him.

      It was in far more than stats though that I never regarded Wenger in having much defensive nous when with lesser player than Adams, Campbell and that ilk. HE WAS SO CONCERNED TO ATTACK AND TO MY MIND RARELY GAVE ENOUGH CREDENCE TO THE IMPORTANCE OF A SOUND DEFENCE IN ALL TOP TEAMS. To often BOTH fullbacks were too far upfield, weakening the defence.

      So no KEN, I have not changed my mind one iota about his defences and I do not believe , despite your “facts” and figures, that you REALLY expected me to and this despite your pleas to change my mind.
      My previous contention stands; that few senior age fans ever completely change their view on anything much at all, ever, even on non football matters. I admire your work ethic when researching your well briefed figures but to me, figures ALONE do not prove facts and that is the crucial difference between us and I contend that will never change. So we can either accept that or carry on battering in vain at each others views.

      1. Jon, all I can say to your reply, is that you are not the realist you claim to be.
        No matter what you THOUGHT you saw from our defence, you were wrong.
        No matter what you THOUGHT of the defenders, you were wrong.

        Your opinions are just that Jon, but the RESULTS from the 12/13 season prove your opinions were not correct.

        I’m sorry that you have failed to live up to your reputation that you have given yourself at the very first hurdle – I guess that puts you in the same bracket as TMJW, refusing the truth when it’s put right in front of you.

        A realist should be showing awareness and acceptance of what is reality…you refuse to do so.

        Perhaps you can now see why I wrote this article – to identify the frauds who pursue an agenda for their own self interests and perceived importance?

        Never mind Jon, on to the next topic.

        1. FIGURES ARE NOT PROOF, by themselves Ken and if you had any legal training you would know exactly that. Proof is something far less open to argument. That those figures prove facts is your opinion, to which of course you are entitled. But this contention of yours that we had a good defence in 2013 season is an opinion only, NOT a fact.

          You are, simply put, far too much in thrall to figures, and public statements as being proof and fail to see, possibly by deliberation , possibly not(as I cannot tell, in your case) that the real truth needs far more to be PROVEN than merely that!
          I suggest when you have time, you go and watch a criminal trial for monetary fraud in action, from the public gallery. It might amaze you with what is needed for actual proof!

          1. So what actual proof do you need Jon?

            In the premier league that season, we had the second best defensive record – we recorded 14 games without conceding a goal – four of those were away from home…,tell me, as a realist, how was that achieved if we had no defeders other than “dross” individuals who were not coached in a defensive manner?

            Your unwillingness not to admit that the season in question was one of a terrific defensive performance, shows that you claim to be a liberal realist, but in actual fact, you just cannot accept the truth, when it clearly shows how you ware wrong in your assessment of “no defence/defenders since Sol Campbell.

            Carry on denying the facts Jon, for what it’s worth your “Trump like” denial of the truth has made my opinion of your views, ethics and claimed realism diminish as quickly as the voter fraud claims of Trump are being dismissed in the courtrooms across America.

            Shame on you Jon, how the younger fans who you preach to must be questioning your wisdom and claims about seeking the truth now!!!

            1. Nine, not four away from home – you see Jon, how your denial of the plain and simple truth is so annoying and frustrating?

              If we end up with that defensive record this season under MA, would you still claim it wasn’t proof that MA had a defence?
              Of course you wouldn’t and neither would any sane and forward thinking fan, but not you Jon, because it proves you were wrong…simple as that -no waffling about money laundering, the courts, or any other reason to deny the figures.

              I will look at your posts and views in the future in a different way now Jon, sorry to say.

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