Munich defeat shows Arsenal have not improved since the Wenger days

How you lose by Dan Smith

So, I said it wasn’t as black and white as what the result would be in Germany.

There is no disgrace to lose at the Allianz Arena, but I stressed it’s how you lose.

That’s what hurt so many Gooners on Sunday. Given the stakes it was unsettling how much we froze. A trend at this time of the year for our young squad.

I can’t write we were as bad as we were against Aston Villa, but were we brave?

Bravery isn’t about getting your foot stuck in and being physical. It’s about demanding the ball, believing you can make the difference, a refusal to play the safe pass, willingness to take a risk.

Think of the last 15 minutes against Bayern Munich. Can you say any player did that?

I think of Paul Merson’s words at the weekend when Havertz failed to close down a cross. His stance was having got this far in the season, you need to close down that cross.

His thoughts echoed in my head in the final stages in Munich. It’s easy for me to say as I’m sure the Gunners were physically and mentally tired, but did we come across as a team desperate to get that ball in the box?

Did we ever come across that we believed we would equalise?

In a Champions League Q Final did we leave it all on the pitch?

If the answer is no, then Arteta didn’t get the leadership he demanded. Some know those leaders don’t exist.

Some readers moved the goal posts since the first leg. There were those who refused to believe we would have to dramatically improve from the Porto tie to reach the Final.

All season some claimed we were second favourites to lift the trophy for no other reason than being called Arsenal.

Despite being away from the competition for 6 years?

Knocked out of the Europa League by the likes of Olympiakos and Sporting Lisbon, without a domestic title in two decades!

Kai Havertz up front!

Eddie Nketiah and Reiss Nelson on the bench!

Why are we paying them 100,000 pound a week if they are not trusted when it matters?

Remember a week ago when I says our manager has zero faith in Smith Rowe?

In the last few days though, those same readers quietly changed their approach, suddenly we were being told that just being involved was progress. Conditioned to think like that. Does a big club think like that?

If you have learnt anything this week, it’s that experience matters at this level. Porto over two legs were able to exploit their game plan simply because they had the knowledge of playing knock out football.

As Tomas Tuchel pointed out before kick-off, he has a dressing room who have won this Cup and played at this stage every year.

In the second half they controlled the tie.

I wouldn’t say we went missing on Wednesday, but we played it safe.

If we win our next two games, we go 4 points clear of City!

Who though on the plane back to England is pointing that out?

Who in training is stressing that these are the occasions you want to be involved in?

Who in the canteen is pointing out that instead of being crippled by a fear of failure, we should be excited about writing our names into the history books?

On the balance of this week, I don’t think that person exists.

I worry how many of our players believe they can still be Champions?

Arsene Wenger rightfully got criticised for taking us to the knockout stages without any ambition to actually try and lift the trophy. Look at the last 20 mins of Wednesday night.

Has anything changed?



So here are some simple rules which I must insist commenters follow….

You agree not to give any personal abuse to other Arsenal fans. Everyone is allowed to hold their own opinions even if you disagree with them. It COSTS NOTHING TO BE POLITE TO OTHER ARSENAL FANS.

Tags UCL QF Wenger


  1. Did we lose 5-1 again or have you forgotten how bad we got under Wenger? I don’t seem to recall loosing 5-1 or 6-0 this season or last. I also seem to remember Wenger finishing outside the top 4 and below spurs. I also remember us allowing an outsider in Leicester to win the league when it was ours to lose under Wenger. Yet the league has been won by maybe the best team in the last 20 years under Arteta and we have pushed them awfully close on two occasions. If you cant see progress under Arteta then I’m just really lost for words.

    1. I more meant nothing has changed to the last time we were in the CL
      But as for saying we lost a league when it was ours to win … could have said that last year

      1. Many would suggest that there is a massive difference between being humbled by consecutive 5-1 scorelines and losing by the odd goal. Many would also hold that there is a significant difference between being well off the pace to Leicester and coming second in a PL title race with MC.
        It seems that according to you there is no difference.
        So many of us will look at the team’s improvement and support the progress and process. While others will continue to wail and see nothing. Each to his or her own.

        1. YES DAVID! It boils down to is one a realist, as you and I are.
          OR is one an eternal pessimist who PREFERS, by his own nature, to be constantly negative .
          I suggest that THAT is the REAL “DIFFERENCE”!

          1. So you say you are a realist, and call Dan constantly negative, but the fact is that his forecasts have generally turned out to be correct,.
            We may not be happy about it, but in fact perhaps it is DAN that is the realist?

            1. I think that’s what hurts
              It’s not that I’m negative ( which I can be ) , it’s that I’m proven correct lol

              1. So you “can be negative”!

                Isnt that rather like saying Trump “can be boastful and boorish!!”

        2. I disagree.
          We finished second to Leicester and we finished second to city.
          What does that matter as we were second best?

          It also doesn’t matter if Bayern beat us 10-2 or 3-2 as they knocked us out in both ties.

          Just as it makes no difference to what strides have been made the last two seasons, as we still haven’t won anything in said last two years.

          There is no doubt whatsoever that MA has improved on his first three seasons, but trophies are how managers are judged by… at least it was previously… so we need to hope that the PL will be won this season and MA gets rewarded for the improvement that is obvious to the eye and ear, but not in the trophy cabinet!!

          1. A distant second to Leicester in a season in which we were amongst the favourites versus second place when we were not expected to make top four. I would suggest there is a difference.
            For me there is also a big difference between losing 10-2 and 3-2.
            Managers are clearly not judged just by results and trophies alone.

    2. 10 – 2 against a top Bayern team and 3 – 2 against the worst Bayern in years just cancels out.

      1. The worst Bayern team in years ? They are on course to finish the season with 7 more points than last season.

        1. In a league that they normally romp home in – are you saying, HD, that the team we saw knock us out this week under Arteta are as strong as the one that beat us under Wenger?

      2. SS, Dan, ken and HD, the critical factor is that Bayer Leverkusen have had an outstanding season in Germany. They must be given great credit given that Bayern Munchen may score 7 more points than last year.

        1. This is a key point. Leverkusen have been exceptional.
          People are trying to make out that this Bayern team is rubbish in order to progress a negative narrative about the Arsenal.

  2. We need to bring in Nicklas
    Bendtner as a Self-belief coach.

    The other night was disappointing and I think the game wasn’t a true reflection of how we can play when we turn up.

    At CL level you can’t afford passengers and I’m sorry to disappoint but Havertz to me has seemed like a passenger this season. I know the usual comments are but he has contributed X goals and assists etc. but you could put anyone in the Arsenal team of last season and they would have got goals and assists.

    The Havertz and Raya experiment will be the sword Arteta falls on. We should have done more to keep hold of Granit Xhaka to be fair or plopped Zinchenko in the left 8 role after he left and played an actual defender at Left back.

    Sorry but Raya isn’t an upgrade on Ramsdale, some of Ramsdale saves last season where phenomenal. Against Bayern, you could see the gulf in quality between our keepers and the confidence Neuer inspired in his backline.

    I don’t think the Kroenkes will give Arteta more than next season to produce the goods. They will want a return on their investment.

    1. Raya, maybe a decent keeper but like you say, not the upgrade on Ramsdale that we are led to believe. And doesn’t look commanding in his goal. Haverz ha been good but not great, still for me a confusing buy. Arteta seems to need Jesus in his team and again, he isn’t a striker and takes away, more than he puts in to the team.

      1. Raya and Ramsdale are both iffy keepers who can be fantastic on the day however on the day being the key word. Scapegoat Havertz has been miles better than Jesus, Martinelli and Trossard but nobody seems to mention that. Infact Nkeitah has more goals than Jesus this season. Furthermore I have no idea what people expect Havertz to do against Bayern when we didn’t create a single opportunity for him. My gripe with Havertz is he wasnt the left 8 we needed but we got lucky that hes a better forward than Jesus so it kinda worked out.

        1. I seem to remember Havertz doing a Havertz header where it just slides off his head like he’s heading late, from Rice’s cross. Nice cross but weak header, straight into Neuers hands. I thought his height and heading was meant to be one of his strengths and a reason why he was bought in?

        2. You are ok with Harverts been a better forward than GJ because he scored 10goals in 40+ matches? Kai’s purchase is still a misery.
          We needed a goal poacher but paid 65m + 330k a week for an experiment (square peg in a round hole)

          1. Well the top scorers in the league are only on 20 goals and Havertz played left 8 for the majority of his games so yes its not the worst output tbh.

  3. I think there is a lot of truth in your article, Dan, the only part I fully reject is the comparison to Wenger. We’ve never truly collapsed in the ways we were prone to doing under Wenger, and we are never quite so open with such glaring tactical weaknesses (which, I concede, does align somewhat with your comment about us playing it safe) – even with the frequently talked about left back issue, we’re nowhere near as open to counter attacks or any kind of obvious threat like that. We have been too static in attack recently, though, with only odegaard and probably jorginho really looking to take any risks at all in their play – it does suggest that we’re inhibited, and it does suggest we’re not there mentally.
    I think the question of whether we’ve made any progress from last season may be answered today – wolves present a similar challenge to Brighton imo, who we soundly beat recently. Are we going to play like that again, with the belief that we’re still in with a chance, or are we going to suffer a hangover from recent disappointments?

  4. We haven’t improved in major European competitions, but all EPL clubs have been kicked out of UCL and EL

    I guess EPL quality is overrated this season

    1. @Gai I agree Epl is actually overated.

      I disagree with the writter that Arsenal haven’t improve since Wenger days. Wenger tenure didn’t end well with a very toxic Emirate atmosphere due to poor upon poor results. Also,
      in my opinion, Epl has become more physical, many quality coaches coming in and the competition more intense.

  5. These comparisons seem pointless. Wenger, one of the greatest ever coaches v Arteta, a virtual beginner.

    1. One of the greatest coaches ever??? For Arsenal maybe but lets not forget we basically give up silverware for 13 years because he refused to sign a decent dm. We got smoked against most half decent teams and usually conceded three times the goals we do now a season. Winning the league when it was just Arsenal and United isnt even as big as Ranieri winning it for leicester.

      1. Maybe ?
        It’s factually true
        And that’s the point im making
        If your downplaying what Mr Wenger did then you can’t say this is progress

        1. Why though? Even the Leicester season under Wenger when we finished second we never felt or looked like winning it. Now we are all sat here sad and depressed after one loss in twelve against a pretty against a pretty good villa side. The difference is night and day.You could look at our fixtures under Wenger and pinpoint the exact date we would mess it up.

      2. liam, why do you think he refused to sign a decent DM?
        Was it because he didn’t have the money, or that he didn’t want to win games, or (as some id***s suggest) he had no idea what a decent DM was?
        I would love to know why you believe that and then ask you why MA has refused to sign a top centre forward, or a proven left back?
        MA has the money, so does he not want to win games, or does he not know what a top LB and CF is?

        1. Because it wasn’t in his nature if I’m being honest. We turned down the opportunity to sign Kante for Xhaka because of Xhakas ability on the ball. Don’t get me wrong I really liked and appreciated Xhaka but he’s no Kante. It’s quite well know Ken that Wenger dropped his physical approach after the invincible season and preferred smaller more technical players. Furthermore Wenger didn’t sign a top Dm for like 15 seasons, Arteta has been in charge for a 1/3 of that and had PEA for his first two!!! What about timber ? Abit unfair to say he hasn’t signed a top left back when we did and he just got injured !!!!

          1. Timber isn’t a LB, whereas Tierney is and what happened to him?
            You didn’t answer my question as to WHY you think Arsene refused (your word not mine) to sign a decent DM for 15 seasons, apart from your thought that it wasn’t in his nature – what does that mean?
            Yes, he had Aubameyang, but he let him leave and didn’t replace him with another out and out striker – why was that?

            1. Tierney has played 14 games this season due to injury. I commented this on one of your previous comments about a lb but never got a reply. I get Tierney is fantastic but you can’t rely on someone who’s always injured. Because his philosophy was all out attacking football Ken I don’t get how you don’t get that? We went from Gilberto silva and Viera to much smaller and technical players. Had Wenger had a rice or a Partey to compliment the likes of Ozil, Carzola and Fabregas then I feel we would have won major honours but Wengers stubbornness cost us massively. For me he should have gone the day Leicester won the title. He thought Jesus would be the man but it just hasn’t quite worked out tbh. That’s on Arteta for indentifying the wrong man so I will give you that but it will get addressed in the summer. Well all our players were fit and he started at left back for the first game. Ben white was in our top 5 performers the season before so I doubt he was brought in to play rb with Tomi also available to play there.

              1. It is worth remembering that until his injury GJ was a key part of the transformed team that made a storming start to last season.
                Since then he has had injuries, surgery and been in and out of the team partly as a result.

        2. Also Liam, when did Abramovitch buy out chelsea and when did city become a plaything for an Arab country?
          2005 and 2008 are the dates I believe, so do you think these two milestones, along with the building of the Emirates, have ANYTHING to do with the situation at The Arsenal, or should we just ignore them in order to have a go at Wenger?
          As for it only being The Arsenal and Man utd, did that happen once AW joined the club, or did Fergie and Arsene have something to do with it?

          1. I “get” that Wenger made mistakes, the biggest one being that he signed a two year extension after beating city and chelsea in the semi and final of the fa cup – you know the two teams that he had to contend with from 2008 onwards.
            Tierney? We had NO actual LB when he was sent out on loan and Partey, Viera, ESR, Timber and Tomiyasu have all been long term injured players, but we had cover, unlike Tierney’s situation.
            How much did Rice reportedly cost us and did Wenger have that kind of money to spend? Of course he didn’t and I don’t know why you cannot see that fact!!
            The same scenario for Aubemeyang in as much as no top goalscorer was around to fill his boots, even though Nketiah was given a reported £100 a week and has done nothing.

            I’m not arguing AGAINST MA, far from it, but why those who see Arteta as a better manager than Wenger and rewrite history to support their views is beyond me.
            Abramovitch was transforming the PL from 2005 – city from 2008 – The Emirates being built at enormous cost and all that is ignored, along with our CL qualification season after season…while Wenger is accused of not being able to identify a CB and / or was to stubborn to buy one!!!
            I truly despair, I really do!!!

            1. I get what you are saying Ken but for a good few seasons we ended up with Mikel Arteta as a lone 6. Then we had Granit there and neither of them were fast enough or defensively good enough to play the role. The worst part of it was when we had to throw in Couquelin against city and we beat them at the eithad and he dominated the game and he still didn’t learn from it. Can you tell me when the last time under Wenger that you felt we could genuinely win the title. Or even go away against another team in the top 6 and get a result? I understand Arteta has spent a lot more than Wenger had available to him but he kept using the funds available on the wrong profile player time after time in the midfield.

              1. I always felt and feel today that we can win anything!!
                Maybe that’s because I wear red and white tinted glasses.
                As for signing the wrong players, do I really have to mention Cedric, Lakonga, Viera etc etc?
                Wenger got slated for signing Cech when we needed a keeper – why on earth did we sign Raya, when we had the England No. 2 and after letting Leno and Martinez go?
                Are the above not perfect examples of double standards?

                1. For Ken
                  Many claim Gilberto Silva was the last DM Wenger signed. But for me the last good DM used by Wenger was Flamini. He was combative and feisty. He let him go on a free.
                  Size is not the issue as shown by N’Golo Kante.
                  Until then I always felt we had a chance (albeit a small one against oligarchs and financial dopers) in the league. When he left, my belief in the team winning the PL also left under Wenger.
                  Since then we had Alex Song, Francis Coquelin (he was not bad along with Cazorla as a partnership), Elneny and Xhaka. None were good enough for that role.

                  1. IGL, nice post sir and some good memories for me.
                    I disagree about Song and Coquelin who were battlers and gave their all in every game.
                    Elneny is one of those players who you can rely on to bring his best into every game and not let himself, or the club, down.
                    Don’t forget that MA gave him a new contract and I hope he stays at the club in a backroom position.
                    I have never given up the belief that The Arsenal would win the PL, no matter who the manager is, hence my glass being always half full!!

                    1. Song was one of my favourite players, and for 2 or 3 years, I thought he was consistently one of our best. He was great for controlling the midfield – strong, skillful, could tackle and could pick a pass, but I don’t think he had the discipline to be a defensive midfielder, he was very good in a more typical cm role with a defensive midfielder next to him – and that’s generally how Wenger played him.
                      His comments about money, and wanting flash cars for change my view of him somewhat, but overall I think he was good enough to have been an integral part of a successful side. The problem was that he was too often paired with denilson, who really wasn’t at the level, despite a promising start.

        3. ken, major error/faiure by Arsene Wenger, as he had the mould in Gilberto Silva, one of the best DM’s ever in the EPL. Gilberto helped make Patrick Viera the midfielder he was.
          I hope Thomas Partey can stay fit for Mikel Arteta (and he selects him) to allow Declan Rice to greater excellence.

  6. I wonder why many on JA always come here burning down their anger on a team MOST NEVER GAVE CHANCE TO SUCCEED.
    How can you be angry over want you want to happen and it happens eclxactly the way you wish it .
    You never gave the team a chance but for you to be calling them out every lose hiding under been Realistic comes around as comedy to me ,if the team loses again you will still shout Nekitia,smith etc did not play like they are better than those who played .
    Win ,Lose or Draw I will be always grateful towards anybody that is playing for my beloved Club.

    Before anybody put effort to reply me ,Know this and save yourself the trouble

    1. So why are you responding to people’s post and comments?
      This is what fans do, analyze games, support the team and look at how your team can be better

          1. I haven’t seen anyone say it’s amazing. What I would say, is that if people can’t see the difference in the club/team over the last few years then they are myopic.

            1. @HD
              I am loving watching entertaining games involving Arsenal. Don’t you feel sorry for Tottenham fans who basically had nothing to look forward to from January onwards other than a failed race to make the Top Four?
              Arteta has given us a smidgeon of pride back, and I like it personally….

              1. True, which means you also disagree with DAN, as I DO AND STATE.

                . And yet I am incorrectly accused of abuse”, while you write the same opinion as me, yet never think that you too , according to your own odd criteria, ,are also apparently “abusing ” DAN.

                However, you dont call HIM “negative”, as I do, thus proving that the only way you could possibly think I “abuse” him is by saying he is negative.
                And THAT is, in your odd misunderstanding of English words, being” abusive”.

                I had assumed you were an educated man PAT. Wrongly, as it seems!


                1. I’m not getting into semantics with you Jon as I prefer to be short and sweet. The difference is that you HATE his opinion whereas I just disagree. A small but very obvious difference

                  1. No Pat.
                    What I do hate is not his opinion but his intention to shove it down our throats almost daily. DAN writes far more than anyone else on JA, (unless you include Martins regular bland,say nothing pieces)
                    You will notice I debate richly and sensibly with other deep thinkers such as Sue P, Grandad, Anders, Ken (sometimes) and others too. But I suggest that all thinkers onJA require and love balance and Dan has no idea what “balance” even means.

                    You could of course always SUGGEST HE TRIES IT THOUGH. But we both know you wont!

                    I am quite enjoying our own(meaning you) jousts, today though!
                    KEEP THEM COMING as they give me excellent chance to set your perennial bias against me straight!

              2. AdPat, I take it that your question was sarcasm, as I laugh at that lot from N17.

                I do think that Arteta has done an amazing job, considering his lack of managerial experience. A few years ago I compared the job Arteta had to do here with the job Fergie had to do when he became the manager at Man Utd, and I was ridiculed by a few posters on here. Seems I was right.

                1. HD, why not concentrate on what Arsenal is achieving rather than the other club up the road in North London? St Totteringham’s day has rarely delivered either club a trophy.

    2. What are you smoking my dude? Most people expected Arsenal to win this season, even fans of other clubs.

      When you spend money the way we do, then winning the league is the least expectation.

      People mock Chelsea for spending a billion, we are right there behind them. We are not that far off a billion spent and yet still we can barely field a half decent starting 11. Chelsea are dumb, but we are just as dumb considering we have given a lot of money to Chelsea ourselves.

      1. What are you smoking? City outspend us every season so do man united and chelsea. In terms of money spent we where 4th in the list yet we sit second. We where outspent by the treble winners so what do you expect ?

        1. Liam, wasn’t that THE EXACT same scenario from 2005 onwards?
          You can’t have your cake and eat it when comparing like for like – did AW have Abramovitch and the Saudis to contend with, along with the Emirates building costs or not after 2005?

          I’m not saying MA hasn’t done an excellent job these last two seasons as he has, but to say that AW had no idea what a decent defender was, or that he only had united to battle, is rewriting history to try and support MA’s own shortcomings.

  7. Dan is right in many respect, but Arsenal must now beat the Wolves, Spuds and Chelsea to salvage some pride and restore our name

  8. Last campaign, a midfield of Odegaard, Partey and Xhaka enabled our forwards to play better and score many goals.
    Arteta sought to change that for the better but ironically Saka and particularly Martinelli, Jesus and Odegaard have struggled to score goals.

    On bringing in Rice, the fans thought a great and effective midfield should be Rice, Odegaard and Partey. Unfortunately, the failed project of Havertz as 8 began and we saw Partey at times being deployed as a full back.

    With Havertz as 8, our attackers have been awful. The only person not seeing this is the manager. As 9, Havertz has been at least average but never looked like a 65M player.

    Why has the manager refused to play Partey and Rice together? Partey played for a few minutes in the away fixture and produced the assist the led to the Saka-denied penalty. In the crucial moments when the manager would have brought in Partey in the second half in Germany, he reverted to Havertz as 8 again.

    This has failed over and over again. Every time Havertz has played as 8, we have hardly scored more than 1 goal. We can only hope to win the remaining games if the manager refrains from playing havertz in the 8 role. That’s simply what has destroyed our season.

    We have definitely improved from the Wenger days but this manager needs to stop being emotional about certain players and insisting on playing them when they are clearly not delivering the goods.

    His poor rotational policy has also caused players like ESR and Nelson to lose their market value.
    Nwaneri should step up as a back-up to Saka and should effectively have minutes for his rapid development. Other teams are prmting their youth. Among the 100 youth players selcted this year, there isn’t as much as a single Arsenal youth. that’s a shame.

    1. Atangana, hopefully now Thomas Partey is fit, Arteta will select a midfield of Odegaard, Rice and Partey, which in my opinion (and your) strongest midfield.

  9. Afew salient thjouights on DANS piece. He said that we were never going to win th CL which I also said all along. He and I were both realistic enough to know that at top CL level, we need far mor experience and we also knew that City, who have far mor experienc at that level themselves ONLY won it last season , after a great many seasons where they failed to win it

    That and esp NOTICING THAT, is what is called REALISM. I adopt REALISM as my guiding life in life itself as well as in Arsenal matters . I recommend it to others, as it WORKS.
    I contrast though, DAN suggests vthat no one , meaning MA, has pointe dout to our team that if we winout nexttwo Prem game swe go four points clear of City. Firstly, thast is simply uninfomrf conjecture byb DAN. And as evidenc for my saying that not a single one of our player will NEED telling, I ask is there even asingle KNOWING Gooner out there who themselve did not know that fact? No I thought nott!
    The fact is DAN IS DETERMINEDLY NEGATIVE thinks he is helping Arsenal by being relentlessly SO. Can anyone , DAN INCLUDED, explain to my satisfaction HOW this relentelss negativity can possibly help the club he loves.

    I can easily see how CONSTANT SUPPORT HELPS ,but as for negativity, all it dores is create JA ARGUMENTS.
    And THERE, in my own question, lies the obvious answer to WHY DAN is always negative . It is also why WE ARE NOT ALLOWED to criticize that negativity,on pain of censorship.!

    1. @Jon Sigh….
      You keep saying that Dan is negative, but the fact is that it is simply his opinion, and your constant NEGATIVITY towards Dan is simply because he ha a different OPINION to yours. Sadly, there are many many fans that have the same opinion as Dan, so what does that make you?
      You can disagree with anyone’s personal opinion, but don’t have to use personal abuse for any reason. Learn to live and live and let live and you will find life to be a lot calmer in your life mate.

      1. PAT I do NOT use abuse , I simply explain, and unlikemany oithers, in DETAIL WHY I say as I DO.
        If you are serious in thinking that me calling DAN netative whic is my own AND MANY OTHERS opinion , is actually” abuse” then you badly need lessons on the true meaning of basic English words. SIGH!

        I suggest you hold a fan poll and ask Gooners do they think DAN IS NEGATIVE,OR NOT.

        That would be a good idea but we both know you wont do it. No PAT, but you will sooner or later , do as you always hav done and censor my truthful posts of what are my own freely held OPINIONS.

        And on a site that your yourself have often told us is a fan OPINION site ,too.! I noticd yhjat recent piec dby YOU tookm amarkedyl differn almost polarcopposute view form DAN negativity. Others too will have notied that.
        So when you are writing yourself YOU consider yourslf free to massively differ, thank ggodnes too, from DANS NEGATIVITY.
        But when weraing your site admin hat, it is a VERY DIFFERENT HAT INDEED. Which shows how right I am when I SAY , as I often do, that we ALL are hypocrites. I suppose you will now say that even that mild, true and harmless comment is”abuse”!
        Towards the whole human race presumably??!!

        Please save me from the wokerati!!


          1. What a silly fuss about a few arthritic fingers. I can at least spell and punctuate well, unusually on JA!

        1. Facts don’t care about feeling Jon lol
          Of course if you do a poll fans won’t like reading we won’t win title …..that doesn’t mean I’m wrong though
          Also I wrote for long enough to know your a bully . Should we do poll on that ?

          1. DAN Ask Pat if he calls calling someone a bully, me in this case, even though patently untrue, constitutes “abuse”

            I naturally am completely unconcerned about you using it, for the simple reason it makes a welcome change from you being negative about the team you, apparently, love.

            I would expect you to be negative about a positive fan whose supporting philosophy is at polar odds with your own.

            1. He’s not even good at being a bully ,disappears when confronted,or just talks gibberish to try to worm his way out of ridiculous things he writes .
              Keep it up Dan you obviously rile him up ,which is funny in itselfs

                1. Yeah I can’t answer without being harsh but I got quite a good idea what’s going on put it that way

    2. Jon, I once said you speak with a forked tongue and your at it again my friend.
      You castigate Dan for his negativity at every opportunity and ask how said negativity can possibly be helpful – when YOU were u relentless for season after season in YOUR negativity to Arsene Wenger, Granit Shaka, Mesut Ozil, Per Mertesaker…. the list goes on and on and on!!

      It is obvious that you have one rule for yourself and one rule for Dan and anyone else who disagrees with you I would add.

      1. What I don’t with his obsession is he also predicts we won’t win the title and agreed we wouldn’t win the CL

      2. Missing a KEY point Ken. I go by the philosophy that those who harm Arsenal in any way are my”enenies” .

        Not is any physical way of course but foes all thr same .

        I reaslise it is hard for you to understand that when you have never accepted the immense harm that Ozil did to us, in all save his first one and a half seasons.

        And of course you will neve raccepot I wanted AW gone since 2008, when I COULD SEE HE WAS HARNING OUR CHANCES OF EVER REACHING THE TOP LEVEL AGAIN, AS WE NEVER DID UNDER HIM.
        Until you get that constant principle through your determinedly obstinate head, then we are doomed to repeat endless and now rather pointless quarrels.

        I remind you KEN, that YOU not I brought up Ozil and AW to me and I havw long known you cannot help yourself, as you are automatically progammed, as a robot would be to defend what it sees as your foe. Me in these cases.

        But that is what will keep on happening, unless you try to understand MY Arsenal principle, which I LIVE BY.

        Your choice old chum,as I am perefectly happy to never discuss either of those two gents with you ever again, if you wish.
        But I WILL NOT STOP MENTIONING THEM WHEN I choose, inreplies to others. For the simple though apparently NOT obvious reason that I DECIDE WHAT I WRITE and not you. CLEAR?

        1. Jon old chap, you are THE most hypocritical person on JA by a very long way.
          You are quite ready to criticise Dan for HIS perceived negativity, but completely BLANK out the times you went on and on about Wenger and his players – Hypocrisy!!

          YOU were harming The Arsenal with your daily rants, but cannot see that YOU were the enemy during that time.

          Of course I brought up the people I mentioned, it was to prove the point I’m making – if you can’t grasp that fact, then I can’t help you.

          I DECIDE WHAT I WRITE and don’t need your permission or guidance – is THAT clear enough for YOU?

          1. Ken, Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. You virtually copied my last sentence, so you must realise how true it is.

            You spend countless posts squabbling, mostly pointlessly, about this and that but never even notice common human nature, it seems.

            Disappointing omission at your time of life KEN.

            And OF COURSE not only, I but ALL humans are hypocrites. You too Ken, but dont feel bad about, as we are programmed , all of us to be so.

            So just admit and own it, as I do , constantly.
            I have said that countless times, but always ignored by you.

            You seem surprised at that truth But by your age you should have known that basic common truth about human nature, for decades past.

            1. No Jon, most people aren’t hypocrites, they change their views if they are given reasons to realize they have been wrong.
              It seems that you can’t accept that everything you accuse Dan of, you have done before, but can’t accept it – that’s hypocrisy at it’s best 😂

              Good three points today by the way!! 👍

  10. The point that JF made about the time it took Man City to win their only CL trophy so far is an extremely important point to remember.
    The fact that we made one final without a sniff since shows just how difficult it is to win

    1. Exactly SueP and we should also remember how difficult it is to even qualify – something that was taken for granted when we did it on a regular basis.
      MA has nigh on guaranteed it for two seasons and THAT in itself should be seen as a success and applauded.

    2. This is true of course.
      Part of the issue here is the overall narrative. According to this author we have not won the CL and we lost to Bayern so we are no further forward than when we were being beaten 5-1 etc. I don’t think that is an appropriate way of looking at things but it seems so many on JA buy into this.

      1. Maybe some are comparing the Bayern team we lost 10-2 against, to the Bayern team we lost 3-2 too, along with the money spent on the latter Arsenal squad to the former Arsenal squad?
        I would suggest that’s an appropriate way of looking at things, but it seems that so many on JA refuse to look at it this way.

        1. The current Bayern team may be having a relatively poorer season than usual but are still a very strong side and have won the CL as recently as 2020. They have CL winners in that squad and they have strengthened.
          The current Arsenal team played in the CL for the first time even if some individual players have previous experience. We lost by the odd goal. Despite the outcome, this Arsenal that people are blasting showed far more heart than the sorry mess that were battered by Bayern.
          The Arsenal team humiliated by Bayern cost quite a lot for the time. Ozil’s transfer of ~£47million is considered to be equivalent to ~£125m now.
          We had World Cup winners in that squad and Arsenal had been in the CL for years. Yet it seemed like we did not even belong on the same pitch.
          That last CL humbling ended a series of awful runs in the tournament. To suggest that our recent results and performances are in any way comparable is quite something.

          1. We’re not comparing recent results and performances, we’re comparing the performances of both Arsenal and Bayern in different times.
            We also had experienced CL players in the squad last week, and I believe they were all full international players that stepped onto the pitch.
            The cost of one Declan Rice was, reportedly £105 million and I’ll leave you to add up the reported cost of the rest of the squad versus the other.
            No one is “blasting” The Arsenal, but pointing out that, once again, Bayern, with a weakened team, knocked us out of the CL – nothing more nothing less.

            1. Same points: the current Bayern team/squad is as strong as many they have had over the last 10 years their relative underperformance notwithstanding.
              We have players playing with injuries, just returning etc. and we have players who have been out for a good part of the season.
              Both games against Bayern were tight affairs. Losing by a single goal is quite different to being annihilated in the fashion of Wenger’s later CL teams.
              To say “no-one” is blasting Arsenal is inaccurate. We already have whole articles denouncing the performance and some have called for Arteta to be replaced.

    3. Sue P and ken, when Arsenal lost their only Champions League final (unluckily), Arsenal had a player sent off and were up against one of the strongest Barcelona teams in their history.
      In previous seasons when Arsenal teams would have been competitive. English teams were banned from European competitions due to the misbehaviour of Liverpool fans.

  11. Massive improvement since the Wenger era

    had wenger been incharge it would have been a 5-1 loss

    One has to wonder if a better manager had managed the invincibles and earlier squads what more they could have achieved

  12. If Wenger was given the war chest given to Arteta, he would have done way better. Arteta hasn’t won anything major yet despite spending close to a billion. All we hear is progress and competing. This is a result oriented sport. Until he lifts a major trophy, he has failed. This is reality.

    1. The reality is that Wenger was a perennial second to Man United simply because of Alex Ferguson’s ability. And Arteta now has to compete with the incredible Pep Guardiolas incredible ability. Eso es la vidal…

      1. Pat, I’m surprised at your comment!!
        Did not Fergie have a bigger transfer pot every season?
        Did Fergie have to cope with the building of a new stadium?
        Did Fergie have owners who backed him to the hilt season after season?
        Until the move to the Emirates, Wenger and Ferguson were neck and neck in domestic matters… except for the Invincibles of course!!

  13. If George Graham was given the war chest he would’ve done better.

    Arteta has already won a major trophy, it’s called the FA Cup !!

        1. He did indeed, supposedly with a club in disarray, dross players and no supporters at Wembley!!
          Not had a sniff since though, despite that £800 million outlay and after getting rid of the supposed dross!!
          Funny old game HD 😂

    1. HD, George Graham did pretty well regardless, domestically and in Europe for the years he managed Arsenal. Too bad Unai Emery, given his experience and track record, wasn’t given the same opportunities and managerial and financial support as Mikel Arteta.

      1. Unai Emery had similar support as Arteta had when they each started. Arteta was not given £100s of million to spend in one go. By the time Arteta joined Arsenal were sliding downwards and in a worse state than even Wenger left us.
        Arteta has been supported because he has demonstrated a clear plan and purpose.

        1. For David and Ozziegunner
          UE was supported financially to an extent with restrictions but not with his own players. He wanted Zaha but got Pepe. He wanted Partey but got Torreira.

          I always felt UE would have been a great 2nd manager after AW left with an interim such as Rafa Benitez being used to steady the ship to bring a defensive structure to the club.

          Despite UE’s failings he actually took us to a European final in his short stint which AW struggled for many years and MA has failed to do.

        2. For the uneducated fan like myself David, could you please outline the clear plan and purpose MA has demonstrated?

          I understand the purpose is to win trophies and improve season after season, but what is the “clear plan” and how long will it take, as there has been no time limit, just phases?

          I look at MA in a different way than you do – here’s my take :

          He’s a passionate and loyal Gooner.
          He’s dedicated to bring success to the club.
          He’s made some bad transfer decisions,
          He’s made some good transfer decisions.
          He’s brought the club together, both on and off the pitch in spectacular fashion.
          He’s been supported to the hilt by the owners, both monetary and decisions made.
          He plays a brand of football that gets me off my seat.
          He doesn’t rotate his players enough.
          He doesn’t learn by his mistakes, such as the Willian debacle.
          He’s been very lucky to have inherited Saka, Martinelli, Martinez(!!) and Saliba.

          Do my examples of his mistakes make me a disloyal supporter, or does the opinion that he never makes a mistake, make that kind of opinion disloyal to the club itself going forward?
          By expressing my belief that he should be praised for his successes but called out for his failures, am I being disloyal?

          “Sliding down and in an even worse state than when Wenger left”….. he won his only trophy with UE’s players – he then started to bring in his own – we finished 8th two seasons running – got knocked out of the domestic cups in the early rounds and exited european football for the first time in two decades… was this part of the “clear plan” or was I right to question him and hold him accountable then?
          The last two seasons, in the PL, have been top notch and long may it continue, he’s brought the CL back, probably for two seasons in a row and we all know how difficult that is to achieve. He’s knocking on the door for the PL title yet again, another great achievement and I see no earthly reason why it wouldn’t continue to happen.

          So what makes you think your a better supporter than me and that I have a hidden agenda against MA, who was AW’s choice to take over from him in the first place.
          UE was NOT supported in the way MA has been and it’s ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
          He wasn’t allowed to buy the players he wanted for starters, surely you know that fact?

          Rant over, but your comments about fellow fans really gets my goat and remember you can’t rewrite history, it’s there for all to see!!

        3. Emery similar support? Are you joking?

          Emery didn’t get to choose his players, yet Arteta given that control.

          Emery had NO support from ownership against the player power and cliques.

          Artwta benched players who were payed millions, and even allowed to rip up contracts and lose millions in valuations.

          Simply false to claim Emery had “similar support” as Arteta.

          You can’t rewrite history to suit your narrative.

  14. Ken1945.I respect your analysis and i am sure you are one of a few who are honest with the situation. Thanks a lot. I just want to say to all,THANK ARSENE,he was very patient with mediocre players including those who became heroes.It is him who brought ARTETA.

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