Thinking the unthinkable – Could Arsenal be relegated?

An article from ThirdManJW

Arsenal being relegated cannot be dismissed out of hand based on performances

Arsenal’s regression has almost reached its conclusion this season, with the very real possibility of them being relegated.

It’s been a long, and predictable process for over a decade now, which has become rather depressing. I felt the next step would be not qualifying for Europe, but it looks as if we have to add relegation to that as well.

I feel a bit ashamed of my Arsenal history in regards to relegation. Like many others, I thought Arsenal had never been relegated, but in fact, they were in 1913. Woolwich Arsenal, as they were known back then, playing at the Manor Ground located in Plumstead, finished bottom of the old First Division. They had one of the worst records ever of a relegated team, winning only 3 from 36 games. Could relegation happen again 107 years later?

We finished last season badly, and have just continued to get worse this season. So I wanted to look at the last 7 games from last season, starting with the 1-0 defeat at Everton, and the 20 league games so far this season, to see if we truly need to worry about relegation. It doesn’t make for good reading.

18/19 (last 7 games)

Home W-0, D-1, L-1
Away W-2, D-0, L-3

W – 2
D – 1
L – 4
GF – 8
GA – 12

7pts from 21pts

19/20 (first 20 games)

Home W-3, D-4, L-3
Away W-2, D-5, L-3

W – 5
D – 9
L – 6
GF – 26
GA – 30

24pts from 60pts

Total from last 27 games

Home W-3, D-5, L-4
Away W-4, D-5, L-6

W – 7
D – 10
L – 10
GF – 34
GA – 42

31pts from 81pts

What’s even more worrying, is that we have only won seven out of those 27 league games, all against poor/average opposition. Even more worrying still, is that we were very lucky in the majority of those victories:

Watford 0-1 Arsenal

Despite a calamitous start from Watford, gifting us a goal on 10 minutes, then Deeney seeing red only a minute later, they should have got something from the game. We had some decent chances, with Miki squandering all of them, but our general play was awful! Watford had control and was looking the more dangerous team, despite a man less for over 80 minutes. Lucky to get the win. We should have dropped points.

Burnley 1-3 Arsenal

Decent win from us, in what was a dead rubber. As always, we perform well when there’s no pressure. Burnley had some chances as well, but we deserved the win overall.

Newcastle 0-1 Arsenal

Solid, uninspiring win. We didn’t create a lot, but equally, our defence was comfortable. It was a good win considering the amount of youth we had playing. We just shaded it.

Arsenal 2-1 Burnley

Very nervy victory. Burnley put our defence under immense pressure, and we never looked comfortable. We won the game in midfield, and just about deserved the win, although it wasn’t convincing.

Arsenal 3-2 Aston Villa

Awful performance, phenomenal comeback. Even before AMN’s sending off in the first half, Villa was tearing us to shreds! In my opinion, we would have been very lucky to even get a draw, let alone the victory. We shouldn’t have got anything from this game.

Arsenal 1-0 Bournemouth

Yet another shocking performance! Horrible game to watch and Bournemouth were the slightly better team. They definitely deserved at least a draw.

West Ham 1-3 Arsenal

We were awful for the opening hour, then just about turned up for the last 30 minutes, winning the game with a few quick goals. We just about deserved the win, but a better team would have finished us off in that first hour, after going a goal up.

Looking at our performances in these wins, I feel we’re around 6/7pts better off than we deserved to be. Very, very lucky to win some of these. I won’t go into all of the draws as well, but again, very lucky that some of those draws were not defeats.

One thinks of Southampton, and Watford battering us this season for example. Norwich probably should have beaten us recently as well. Obviously, we have had some bad luck along the way as well, but the negative performances massively outweigh the positive performances.

In fact, Arsenal has only had one good league performance all season, which was the recent draw with Bournemouth. For once, we turned up for both halves, and we controlled the game throughout.

It’s not my intention to depress you all as we head into a new year, but our performances have been shocking, and this has been going on for a long time. Over the same period of the last 27 games, I would argue Arsenal are rock bottom in comparison to the other EPL clubs in regards to performances, and it’s only luck that we’ve picked up as many points as we have done.

It’s now getting a little scary because we’re just over the halfway point, we’ve steadily got worse, and we haven’t got the new manager bounce that so often happens. Everton, Watford, and Spurs have all instantly improved after changing managers. I also expect West Ham to now improve after changing the manager. Brighton is slowly improving, now that Potter (who was appointed in the summer) is adapting to the league. Southampton is now starting to pick up the points their performances have been deserving of late.

So, can Arsenal be relegated? form and statistics are saying most definitely yes.

91 Comments

  1. gotanidea says:

    Definitely. That’s why we must win against Man United

    Arsenal currently have 24 points and we must get minimum 40 points to survive the relegation

    We only have 6 easy home games left plus 2 big home games. Suppose we win all those 6 easy home games, we would get additional 18 points and we would be relatively safe from relegation

    1. towny254 says:

      The way we are playing there are NO easy home games

  2. Reggie says:

    As i stated the other day, this last calendar year we have been in relegation form. Nothing is impossible and i would bet that we wont be relegated but im not putting any of my hard earned money on it because we have talented but flimsy players and a rookie manager, so it is not to be dismissed lightly.

  3. PGT says:

    Unfortunately, it’s difficult to argue with the stats and your rationale. We have been unlucky to lose our top three defenders for such a prolonged period. It would be unthinkable for the owners not to protect their investment by bringing in a central defender and perhaps a DM in the January sales. As it stands, we need to score three goals to be reasonably certain of a victory – that’s not PL form.

  4. Liam says:

    We won’t get relegated fact. A year out of all European competition would actually be good for the squad. We can trim the squad right down and focus soly on getting back into the top 4. Question do you think Lacazette looks ten years older than he actually is? I feel he has lost a yard of pace and his stamina is decling similar to what happened to Rooney. Sell him now whilst we can still get a decent fee.

    1. Reggie says:

      I doubt you appreciate the implications, revenue and sponsorship issues by actually being of Europe. A bit of a flippant statement, with massive serious implications.

  5. Truth says:

    The team that I saw play against Chelsea is not going to get relegated. How about a bit of optimism?

    If you don’t see signs of improvement under Arteta you don’t want to see them.

    We will loase against Man U but I am not worried about relegation under Arteta. I was worried about relegation under Emery.

  6. Glorious says:

    This article is nauseating. Relegation is not possible, the question is can Arsenal be in Europe at the end of the season?

    1. Liam says:

      A year without Europe would be a blessing in disguise.

      1. Truth says:

        Agreed. Accept that it will cut our budget to zero.

      2. Reggie says:

        Im sorry you dont realise what you are actually saying. Our finances wont suffer us being out of Europe and you can forget new signings of quality. We are in the financial red zone now.

    2. Siamois says:

      Well said and very good use if the word nauseatus!👍🏼

  7. Mogunna says:

    Who do you call idiot? This a game, a website with thoughts, maybe wrong but you just can’t insult people! See I’m not calling you names! Not war, a game with players & a laim coach paid millions for, my friend! Don’t get too deep nor affected that way! Look at the numbers and stats, our team and games, number of points and Everyone goes from 18 spot to pass us by in 4 games. Then you may smell the coffee!

    But you are the type who can see us fall down all the way to bottom and still call all of us names!

    1. Jim will fix it says:

      Wow who is calling who an idiot and is there any sense in it?
      We are in relegation form and another 2/3 defeats and Arteta will be in deep trouble! If we finish say 16/17 place, would fans here accept that Arteta failed to get the best out of squad with so much talent? Btw I am not angling for his sacking but want to see if our fans are rational?

  8. ken1945 says:

    So for over a decade we have been going downhill?

    I wonder why you didn’t follow THAT statement up with the same intensity and stats as you did for the rest of the post TMJW?

    Over a decade…so let’s be fair and say fifteen years to include “over” part shall we?

    Of those fifteeñ years, twelve have seen us reach the qualifying knock out stage of the CL and a semi final…no regression there then.

    Of those fifteen years, twelve have seen us finish in the top four – and those last three years saw our final position go from 4th to 3rd to 2nd…no regression there then.

    Of those fifteen years, the fa cup has been won a further tthree times, makiñg us the most succesful club in it’s history.

    Of those fifteen years, the club has reached the final and semi final of the europa league…no regression there then.

    Now this was achieved under kronkie, who wants a self sustaining model, in other words he is not prepared to put any money into the club.

    To go back and look at what happened under GG, AW, UE and saying that it looks ominous, is a discredit to our new coach MA, who at the time of posting this, has had no imput whatsover in any transfers in or out – we can see, however, what an impact he already has made.
    Wasn’t the cry “we can’t defend because we have no defenders”the most posted tweets from the doom and gloom merchants on here?
    Didn’t anyone see the way we defended in the last game, with our two first choice full backs out injured, our centre back seriously injured during the game and a howler from our fantastic goalkeeper that gifted them the equaliser?

    Some of our fan s are so negative, they are even calling for Leno to be sold – what a load of charleton fans we have.
    If the accusation of regression was based on facts, we would have been relegated during those fifteen years of actual positivity, the last year of AW and the eighteen months of UE have seen the decline really hit the club and yet…along comes the “great pretender”, who wasn’t seen as good enough by these fans – hey presto – with this squad of mentally frail, lazy, leeches we have seen progression in just three games.

    If the last twelve of the fifteen were seen as failures and regression, god help Mikel Arteta and, of course, inthe last fifteen years, WE HAVE NEVER ONCE BEEN IN A RELEGATION FIGHT, so I guess, if one was to be ultra negative as well, the regression started this season and this season alone.

    1. Liam says:

      When Ramsey was ruled out for the season that’s when the decline started. We lost all energy in the middle of the park. Xhaka Torriera and Ramsey all complimented each other well and we really missing that kind of player atm ,Willock has done admirably for a youngster but we need better. Drop out of Europe and sell the unhappy players. Chambers Sokratis Luiz Mustafi Xhaka Lacazette Abameyang Torriera Ozil could all leave giving us a decent wage and transfer budget. Buy the next big thing when it comes to transfers, I know Pepe hasn’t worked out just yet but the intent was there. The rumours of Upamecano are promising as he could build a formidable partnership with Saliba for 10/15 years flanked by Tierney on the left.

    2. jon fox says:

      Ken, as ever a simple flat refusal to ever accept thet the rot started way back under your hero Wenger with his flat refusal to even see the urgent need for a proper ancd powerful DM and for his long term dreadful purchse of numerous way sub par CB.; sstrating way bacvk with SENDEROS AND ENCOMPASSING STEPANOVS, SCHILLACHI, CYGAN,DJOUROU SYLVESTRE, MUSTAFI AND CHAMBERS. Such as Song, Flamini and Coquelin were all merely average to half decent and not top class. Not remotely. He bought just ONE indisputable TOP CLASS CB in CAMPBELL, plus a few half decent ones in Kos, Toure Gallas and some say, though I do NOT, also Merts. Not much in 22 years and he also allowed Almeria to keep goal for three full seasons.

      I have never seen you refer to any of these, not once Ken. It doesn’t suit your agenda. We will ALWAYS disagree on Wenger for his defensive work, which I say was virtually non existent for many years after GG’s defence retired, with the sole exception of the Invincibles, which thanks to the wonderful midfield and forwards, were rarely troubled much and which even then had only CAMPBELL as a true top class CB . Toure was always overhyped, as most fans always do with MERELY decent players, who they ludicrously call World Class, when they are clearly not. Attacking wise WENGER DID WELL OVERALL AND BRILLIANTLY FOR A DECADE BUT DEFENSIVE WISE HE WAS POOR. You just will not accept the evidence which stared us all in the face for many years. I do accept this ample evidence AND THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US.

      1. Krish says:

        no the difference between you both is that you are senile and arrogant and you think that writing in CAPS makes it somehow a better opinion and Ken is a guy with opinions based on facts but doesn’t think that his opinion are somehow shared by the majority 🙂

        1. RSH says:

          they both used facts and make fine arguemnts, you just don’t like the one that doesn’t fit your agenda.

        2. jon fox says:

          Krish, I write in capitals, at least in part, merely to emphasise some phrases. In speech, we have the choice of inflection, pitch, pause, pace and power. In written language we need to use the fewer devices at our disposal, including a variety of punctuation to make the written words stand out. I am keen to know why that simple fact irritates you, as to my mind it seems an irrational criticism and one which is bent on denying choice. Would you prefer we all wrote and spoke exactly the same way? Or that we all looked alike? Or were the same colour and so on. I am all for diversity and freedom to choose. Are you? I really wonder!

        3. ken1945 says:

          Skrish, your probably right regarding senility, maybe a little correct on arrogance, but most certainly wrong that I believe the majority don’t share my views – that would be arrogance of the highest degree!!!

          As a senile old fool, can I suggest you give us your feedback? After all, this is a debating site for all age groups and yours would be most welcome.

          1. jon fox says:

            Ken you have misread the post from Krish. He was calling me those names , not you. You will see my answer if you care to look too.

      2. Reggie says:

        Good post Jon, nobody could argue with that.

      3. ken1945 says:

        So Jon, give me one, just one, season under AW ( or come to that UE’s one season) when, we faced a relegation battle?

        You just cannot do it Jon can you?
        Not once in the twenty two years did we face relegation, but instead of addressing that FACT, you repeat your long winded, ever repeating, self obsessed dialogue about the players.

        So, once again Jon, as a realist, with such wonderful insight, I say to you, the ample evidence is right in front of you, but you cannot accept it, as it proves your self proclaimed boast that AW should have left in 2008, as the most ridiculous, self deluded nonsense on this site.
        You actually boast about it, while claiming to be a realist…so Jon let’s see if your assesment of AW and the players hold water – how, with dross players and a manager with no defence achieve what I outlined and never faced a relegation battle?

        I want to see Jon if you will FINALLY explain that incredibly realistic question, that for some unaccountable reason, you never answers, but pretend you have….over to you Jon and to help you out, I’ll start the sentence for you;

        From 2008 AW and his team of dross defensive players only managed to finish in the top four and qualify for the CL and win numerous fa cups for the next fifteen years because………………………………….?

        1. jon fox says:

          Ken, It seems not to have occurred to you , that a club with our long and glorious history and a world wide fame that began many years before Wenger waS even born, should never even accept a relgation battle as an outside possibility. Since the mid seventies we have never been in the bottom six even. I do not envisage relegation now, not since Artetas long overdue appointment. But though you flatly refuse to accept all my ample evidence in my above post, it remains profoundly true. Top clubs do not just get relegated out of nowhere, It begins with a steady and then accelerated decline, as United did when going down in late seventies and as Chelsea and Spurs have also done well within your and my living memory, Also City too. But Arsenal, not since 1913. But thanks to that remorseless drift, under Wenger and his wilful ignoring and neglect of defence which I outlined in detail but which you flatly refuse to accept, nor ever mention either, interestingly , as to you it did not even exist – TALK ABOUT WILFUL BLINDNESS – we find ourselves without a defence at all . This began under WENGER. THAT IS THE TRUTH. YOU WON’T ACCEPT IT. I DO. SO DO MOST OTHER FANS TO JUDGE FROM MANY COMMENTS REGULARLY MADE. And from that long and ultimately successful fan campaign to get him sacked(or resign if you wish to go on fooling yourself about what actually happened. It was an ultimatum; resign or ba sacked , So he resigned. If you wish to call that a true “resignation”then go ahead.) All that mattered to me was he was finally, THOUGH FAR TOO LATE, GONE!

          1. ken1945 says:

            Please just answer the simple realistic question posed to you Jon, not the usual ramblings that try to sidestep the question – from 2008……

            I would suggest agu emen is waiting expectedly for your precise, fully explained response, along with the “majority” you always feel the need to include in your replies.

            Let’s pretend it’s you and me debating on our own and I ask this very simple question…How did, from 2008, AW and his team of dross players ….once you have answered that, I will then answer as many questions, give you my thoughts on anything you wish to challenge me on – over to you.

    3. ThirdManJW says:

      So Ken1945, I’ll happily dissect your spin with facts, and you also have to consider that statistics do not show how the level of performances have declined over time from the start of Wenger’s reign, to where we are now.

      After winning multiple trophies up to 2005, we then had to wait 9 years for another one. That is massive decline!

      After winning 3 league titles, and being extremely competitive even when not winning the league, up until 2004, it is now 16 years since we last won, or even competed for a league title. Only finishing runners-up twice in 16 years, but not challenging. From being very dominant, and competitive against the opposition, to regular thrashings from our rivals, and finally hitting rock bottom where the worst teams in the league have no problems tearing us to shreds. That is a massive decline!

      To having squads jam packed with talent, to where we are now, with only one world class player. That is a massive decline!

      From being extremely competitive in the Champions League, to then struggling to get to the later rounds, with thrashings, and embarrassing performances happening more often. Then dropping into the Europa League for the last 3 seasons. Fantastic that finally made a European final last season, but overall…That’s a massive decline!

      Great piece of spin also mentioning us finishing 2nd in the league. On paper it looks great! Our best finish since 2005, but you seem to have conveniently left out some vital information, as it doesn’t fit your narrative. It was Wenger’s worst ever season! He finished above ManU, ManC, Liverpool, Spurs, and Chelsea, yet still couldn’t win the league, and amazingly, couldn’t even challenge! We scraped into 2nd on the final day. All our rivals hand it to him on a plate, and he still couldn’t win it!

      I could go on, but one can see the massive decline.

      1. Reggie says:

        Great post third man cant argue with that. Says it all really, it shows that we have been sinking for a good few years.

      2. ken1945 says:

        TMJW, please tell me what happened in 2005 that changed the face of english football forever?
        To help you out, a similar thing happened in 2008.
        Surely, you facts must have taken that into account?

        As for finishing 2nd, once again your complete and utter negativity towards the club shines through – our rivals handed it to him on a plate?
        Why would they do that TMJW – that crass remark is as good as the one that tried to explain our fa cup win over chelsea…they had been out the night before celebrating winning the league!!!

        This kind of negative BS from so called fans of The Arsenal is unbelievable – so what’s your excuse for the season before, when we went from 4th to 3rd? All the other teams were fighting relegation, or riley took pity on us?

        You don’t even get your CL facts correct, just go and check how consistent we were in reaching the knockout stages and then come back to me with your findings, that will be interesting.

        Regular thrashings? Let’s have the details then, on a regular basis, each season and by whom, from the fifteen years one by one starting from 2004, that will be interesting as well.

        The europa qualification period you mention? I note you didn’t mention the fa cup win and missing CL again by one point- yeah a massive decline can be clearly seen, how on earth we missed relegation is a mystery to all the positive gooners.

        The most incredible thing about your usual negativity however, is that, like Jon Fox, you can give no explanation as to why, during this MASSIVE DECLINE, we still won fa cups, still finished in the top four and still qualified for the CL and doing this with just one world class player … perhaps you might enlighten me as to how this was achieved, while battling against relegation – I just mentioned relegation to put some spin into my reply.

        1. ThirdManJW says:

          @ken1945

          I’ll happily break down your delusions once again. Why am I usually negative? Well what is there to be positive about? We have been on a downward spiral for years, and we’re light years away from where we once were.

          Usually finishing 2nd should be a positive thing, but as I said, we only scraped into that position on the final day thanks to Spurs messing up. My main point though, is that when you’ve gone 12 years at that point without winning or even challenging for a league under the same manager, and then everyone one of your rivals messes up, yet you still cannot get close to winning it, then that deserves criticism. Not only that, it exposed Wenger for the fraud he was, and vindicated all those fans who dared speak out against the messiah Wenger.

          You seem to think criticism for consistently finishing 3rd or 4th in the league is wrong? So I guess should never be expected to win or challenge for another league title then?

          I have got my CL facts spot on. I never said we were not getting out of the groups. I said we were struggling to get to the later rounds. Also, if you go back and look at the vast majority of the groups we were in, they weren’t exactly difficult to get out of. Yet it’s made out to be a fantastic achievement from Wenger. I prefer to look at what happened in the knockout rounds when the pressure was really on. We did well here and there early on, then gradually got worse, resulting in regular thrashings and consistently throwing away matches in the 1st leg. I think Bayern beat us 5-1, three times in a row, if I am not mistaken?

          On the other thrashings, there have been so many. 6-0 Chel, 8-2 ManU, are just two horrendous ones. It was also our general decline against top teams. Even when we were not thrashed, we constantly being beaten, and with ease on most occasions.

          The FA Cups were fantastic, which I thoroughly enjoyed, but we realists knew it wouldn’t lead anywhere. They just papered over the cracks, which has since been proven.

          I find it mind boggling how you cannot see the decline? Winning the league and challenging for it, is apparently the same as not winning or challenging for the league, according to you? Winning, and being competitive in big games, to regularly losing them with ease, is also the same? That’s what’s called a decline.

          If Nadal went years without winning another major, performing worse, year on year, would that not be a decline? Should he be happy if was constantly getting knocked out in the last 16, or QF of majors?

        2. Siamois says:

          👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

      3. jon fox says:

        Third MAN. kEN WILL NEVER ACCEPT THE PLAIN TRUTH. WILFUL BLINDNESS WAS wEngers trademark once “I did not see it” Remember? Of course you do! KEN does a great Wenger like impression of not seeing things too.

        1. ken1945 says:

          Jon, you obviously didn’t see the simple question I asked you, or couldn’t reply to it for some reason, so I’ve asked TMJW, as you seem incapable of doing so – but to be completely fair, I have asked you once again to give it a go old friend.

          As for being sacked Jon, I thought you would have left that subject alone, after seeing just how The Arsenal act when doing this sad act.
          If I do find a “Adious Unai” t shirt, rest assured it will be sent on to you post haste – here today gone tomorrow as they say.

          1. jon fox says:

            Ken And you have also never answered my questions. (Admittedly mine are far fewer, since I am , unlike you, not a forensically inclined barrister trying to defend Wenger from his clear guilt.) I repeat MY question, which is why do you never mention all the defensive flaws that I and countless others mention in WENGERS LAST DECADE. Why did he buy so very many rubbish CB’s over all those years? Where was any evidence at all of defensive coaching? Why no serious attempt to properly replace Gilberto or Viera ? Why so many midfield dwarves? WHY SO MANY MIDFIELDERS WERE PLAYED, ON THE WING, INSTEAD OF GETTING A PROPER WINGER? QUESTIONS, QUESTIONS AND NO ANSWERS FROM “BARRISTER” KEN.

            IF FOR A CHANGE KEN, YOU WOULD EVEN ACCEPT THAT I HAVE A TOTALLY DIFFERENT VIEW FROM YOU AND IF YOU WOULD EVEN ALLOW MY QUESTIONS TO STAND, then I might feel more inclined to answer yours. MANY OF THEM I HAVE IN FACT ANSWERED BUT YOU DON’T SEE MY ANSWERS. THREADS CHANGE FAR TOO QUICKLY ON HERE AND I CAN’T KEEP UP.

            As to UE, I was man enough to admit I had been wrong when the damning evidence against him became obvious. Shame you cannot bring yourself to admit Ozils laziness, despite all the years of damning evidence.
            On WENGER, I do not agree that his last 14 seasons with NO title but just three FA Cups and no serious CL challenge after 2006 was even par for the course for a club of our standing. Top four was nothing special either and there was clear, accelerated and marked decline after 2006/7. It seems you are just far more easily satified with relatively little then most fans. We will never agree on the merits of what you see as success but I SEE AS RELATIVE FAILURE IN THAT LAST DECADE. Had we been called LEICESTER OR WOLVES YOU MIGHT HAVE HAD A POINT BUT WE ARE ARSENAL FC, A CLUB OF WORLD STANDING, BEFORE WENGERS BIRTH!
            REALISTS CAN BE WRONG TOO BUT THEY CHANGE THEIR OPINION WHEN THE FACTS PROVE THEM WRONG; PRECISELY BECAUSE THEY ARE REALISTS! DINOSAURS WILL NEVER CHANGE THEIR OPINIONS. WHEN THE FACTS SHOW CHANGE, THEY STILL STICK DULLY TO THE SAME OLD PARROTED LINE. Rather like Corbyn and the reason he lost so badly being his own ineptness, unpatriotic behaviour and unpopularity with even tribal LABOUR voters, but he would not have it and blamed ONLY Brexit, which was a factor but NOT the main reason! There is none so “conservative” and loathe to change when the facts show they are wrong, than a far left socialist, ironically. When facts show change, a sensible person changes their mind. A conservative(small c) far left socialist never does! Nor an Ozil defender!

          2. ken1945 says:

            Yet again Jon….and remember the world is waiting….please answer my question as it was first put to you…and then we can go into minute detail on whatever subject you wish to discuss with me…no more wriggling Jon…it’s getting embarrassing. ?.How since 2008……….

          3. jon fox says:

            Ken, about those “fifteen glorious years” , I just do not accept the premise which you make in your question,. So I cannot and will not try to answer a question which assumes a situation with which I PROFOUNDLY DISAGREE. You will never understand my answer nor acceot it but that is all you will ever get. I DO NOT ALLOW A FAKE QUESTION. REALITY! Why don’t you answer why we did so poorly these last 14 YEARS THEN! You will reject my premise, just as I reject yours! If you will not accept no for an answer, then tough!

          4. ken1945 says:

            Jon, I should have also added your completely negative reaction to The Arsenal winning the fa cup against Hull City…the referee made a bad decision by giving a corner – following on from TMJW’s and another poster ( no name needed) of we only beat chelsea in the cup final because they were out celebrating winning the league the night before – every other team let us finish second to Leicester in the premier league blah de blah de blah….see the same theme running through these reasons Jon?

            Complete and utter negativity, never giving the club, it’s players and the manager any support for their achievements and trying to completely undermine the record of our club with this extraordinary whining and utterly bewildering excuses for not recognising those achievements – rather just keep on going back in time.
            giving your opinions as if they are facts, while blissfully ignoring the actual facts, or making excuses for why they happened. SIGH a liberaĺ sigh sigh and now:

            Don’t use this as an excuse to forget my simple, easy to answer question though, surely one of the above reasons can be woven into your reply?

        2. ken1945 says:

          Jon oh Jon oh Jon, you have failed miserably my old friend.
          By using the word “premise” to ensure your conflicting views cannot be scrutinised is like saying “I take the fifth amendment”. So disappointed in you, let’s hope TMJW can answer it.

          However, being a man of my word, not hiding away from my views being challenged and answering every question put to me, why don’t you now list every single question you want to ask me?
          If you do it by numbers (1,2,3,4 etc) I will answer each one as directly and truthfully as I can.
          Don’t worry how many you need to ask – I will reply to them all.

          As I am out tonight and seeing my family tomorrow, before going to the game and then travelling home , please expect answers after the 2nd or 3rd of January…so Jon, give it your best shot and I promise you I will not hide or shy away from any question regarding AW from 2005 onwards, whether I agree with the premise or not.

          1. jon fox says:

            Ken, You will still get no answers from me other THAN THE ONE I HAVE REPEATED SEVERAL TIMES ABOUT NOT ACCEPTING YOUR PREMISE. YOU CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE ME AND THAT IS YOUR RIGHT. MINE IS TO REFUSE TO REPEAT MYSELF AGAIN. So ask away if you wish and you will be ignored, as there is no point my keeping giving an answer that will not be accepted by you. Frankly, I have other things to do than list my questions at your leisure. You know my questions(as in my above post) Answer them if you choose and at your leisure or ignore them. I care nothing either way. There is little meeting of minds on so many Arsenal matters that I SERIOUSLY WONDER WHETHER IT IS WORTH ADDRESSING YOU ON HERE. NOTHING PERSONAL BUT ON ALL THE PERTINENT THINGS WE SEEM TO DISAGREE AND NEITHER WILL CHANGE OUR MIND, SO WHATS THE POINT OF KEEP REPEATING QUESTIONS? I say there is no point Ken!

        3. ThirdManJW says:

          @jon fox

          I think we should give up mate. Facts don’t work on him!

          1. ken1945 says:

            STMJW, give me facts, not opinions and I will agree with you.

            Does this mean that you also, cannot answer the simple question…I guess it does.

            So all the hot air, accusations, negativity and silly statements regarding our club cannot be backed up then?

            Thhe other clubs let us finish second – if you think thay statement holds any credence with a sensible football supporter, then I agree with you…just give up ASAP before you make even more ridiculous stagements.

          2. jon fox says:

            Third Man JW, Ken is an obsessive when demanding answers to his questions But he never comments at all on Ozils long term laziness except to flatly deny it. That is the problem we have with Ken. He lives in his own world of WENGER BEING BRILLIANT RIGHT TO THT FINAL TWO YEARS, WHEN HE ADMITS IT WENT WROING. I had been saying WENGER WAS REGRESSING US SINCE 2008. I NOTICED IT AS EARLY AS 2006 BUT GAVE HIM A CHANCE TO PUT IT RIGHT. BUT HE JUST MADE IT WORSE, MAINLY BY IGNORING BOTH DEFENCE AND DEFENSIVE MIDFIELD. KEN JUST WON’T ACCEPT THAT MANY OTHERS, IN FACT MOST OTHERS, TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH HIM OVER WENGERS LAST SEVERAL, NOT MERELY TWO, YEARS AND ABOUT OZIL BEING LAZY. Ken still, even now, fondly IMAGINES that most Gooners love and admire OZIL. He constantly quotes world wide shirt sales as Ozil being loved. THAT IS WHAT WE REALISTS ARE UP AGAINST AND WHY I CANNOT ANSWER HIS BIASED QUESTIONS CARRYING A PREMISE I SIMPLY DON’T ACCEPT.

          3. ken1945 says:

            So Jon, just give me the questions you need answering, that’s as simple as it can be.

            I honestly believe that when you are challenged by someone who is not afraid to back down, you wilt like a dying dandelion.

            So it now seems that you are even backing out on the questions you say I don’t answer – I’m starting to see you in the same way you so often diss our players…fragile in the extreme.

            Give me the list of questions Jon and the vast majority you feel follow you can then see who is right..or is it really just a load of pontification on your part?
            Ask me what I think about Ozil, not what you think I think about Ozil – or ask me when it was I last mentioned shirt sales-ask me why I think most fans still “fondly imagine” AW as anything at all…its all down to you now Jon, either back up your accusations, or be seen as a complete windbag and I promise ABSOLUTELY I will not use the word “premise” or the fifth amendment in any one of my answers…WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO LOSE???

            Just to get you going, I think Ozil is the most overpaid footballer in the world today…over to you Jon.

            OT HappyNew Year to both you and TMJW along with every other gooner on the planet…and for those gooners down under in aussie land, be safe and may 2020 bring you peace and happiness.

          4. ken1945 says:

            Just realised Jon, if your asking the questions, why would you worry if they are loaded and biased?

            I haven’t a care in the world, so bring them on, loaded, biased and whatever else you want to do – I’m ready to answer them all!!!!

          5. ozziegunner says:

            In my personal view the steady decline of Arsenal began at the end of the 2007/2008 season when Flamini joined A Milan and Gilberto Silva joined Panakinikas. These were last two physically dominant DM’s Wenger had. He started going for smaller albeit technically gifted midfielders and Arsenal started being bullied off the ball. “Arsenal don’t like it up ’em” became the opposition’s war cry.

  9. TH14_ says:

    Ask Lacazette!

  10. Grimlar says:

    Must admit Im not expecting much from the Man U game.

    Arsenal have problems in defense, midfield and attack. As such, relegation must be considered a possibility. Europa league qualification is I think also possible but by no means certain, and whilst a year out of Europe might benefit the team, it will hurt financially, even the Europa league.(I dont rule out qualifying for the Champions League, but I think its a long shot.)

    I am however encouraged by the performances in Arteta’s first two games in charge, but as we didnt win either of them and it seems likely that there will be a fair amount of change to the squad before the start of next season, you have to say that he still has a lot to sort out before we can breathe a bit easier.

    I think I would describe myself as ‘cautiously optimistic’ for the new year, but this transfer window is going to be quite important to get right in terms of the result at the end of the season.

  11. antonioro says:

    Winning the Europa League and getting relegated is going to establish a new record for Arsenal and English football-being the first Championship team playing in Champions League-nice,isn’t?

  12. Sue says:

    There’s talk of Chambers doing his ACL ☹

  13. Mogunna says:

    Of course we are in serious danger an threat looking at past 10 games and next ones!

    We are even with Burnley at 24 points, 1 points ahead of Brighton and 2 away from 15th spot Southampton we would trade place with if they win while we lose and two other team draws only!

    We are 6 points from 18spot, that’s 2 games away! Losing Man U and at Palace puts us 18th upon other teams wins!

    So, let’s wake da heck up, this is our reality and this team is not used to be in such posture, affects players mentally, scared and doubtful, making us more vulnerable than teams used to fight against relegation!

    18 games left, with average of our past 10 games, we will have 12 more points! Bellow 40 points is relegation!

    To think we can beat Man U in current form is worst than to think we could beat Chelsea who is way weaker in every part of the field! Incredible speed and attack with a solid back 4, Pogba saved for the occasion, this can be a chaos! Certainly can’t pretend to beat Palace at home if we can’t bit everyone in lower positions!

    This is not looking good and now shows what we have became in 18 months since we chased our Prof out like a life reject! Set up by Kroenke as Emery who realised last transfer window!

    He asked for Zaha, Maguire and Partey! Kroenke jerked him and then tricked him as all of us with his Pepe trick, a payement plan with 30M down as Saliba and Tierny 10M each down!

    Zaha was 60M but upfront! Same for Maguire! We got Luiz for Kos instead!the entire mess going on is Kroenke. Wanted get rid of Ozil to save money, had him pushed out of the team giving Ceballos to Emery to make it up! He was supposed to be captain after Kos left but they gave it to Xhaka to hurt Ozil, in result Xhaka couldn’t handle and sacked. You don’t see this anywhere, we have an owner managing team and club! Now Auba, but it should be Laca who been there before and leader mentality, Auba is a great striker, no Captain. Kroenke trick again to have him extend but he will be leaving in few days! What a captain everyone will say! No what a low life vicious greedy owner!

    It is all coming back at him! To do Prof that way is insane, Emery got the taste of it, Suarez and Kante were on their way, Kroenke ruined both deals, we would be champions several times since! But we took it on Wenger who kept us alive decade with kids on the pitch!

    Emery was not sacked because of result but because Kroenke got scared to see empty stadium, got us a home coach we respect to get us back in stadium, same for Arteta, then what,? Relegation 2 games away!

    To see us 12th seems unreal, when we move 15th after next game, it will look worst, lose at Palace have us 18th upon teams results!

    We must stop go to stadium for 3 games with few people remaining, Kroenke out or empty stadium!

    He will have to sell before AFC value drops from 1 billions he made so far, right away!

    Our problem been Kroenke for a decade strong or we would be winning several EPl and CL. Can you imagine Suarez and Kante, with Sanchez and Ozil? Of course we win it all for years! Kante moved to Chelsea, they were Champion!

    Would we be in such posture if Emery had got players requested? Zaha, Maguire & Patey!

    Hell no, it is precisely additions we badly needed to reiforce overall team! Kroenke cheap tricks and moves, flashing Pepe because he got scared with fans letter while he was not buying anyone and started finiding tricks instead to put 180M down and bring these 3 players! He saved the money, payments plans,selling few players, we did not spend 45M as past 10 years, always sell to bring it to 45M budget!

    1. Andrew Elder says:

      Why not average out our last 20 games, why 10? That will give us 45 or 46 points.

  14. Sean Williams says:

    Of bloody course we can be relegated. Silly point. If we keep drawing and losing matches we WILL be relegated. We got rid of some good players. Ramsey, Coquelin, Sanchez etc. We have quite a lot of bog standard players and some cannot concentrate for 90 mins like Xhaka, AMN, Mustafi. Lacazette sulks non stop. Nelson is nothing special…does not attack the backs. Praise to Martinelli and Chambers (who is now injured) for giving 100%. We are poor and desperately need a CB, creative midfielder and even a full back. Luiz and Socratis and Mustafi are the worst trio in the Premier League. Our midfield is just OK. No high quality, no magician, no controller. Yes we could get relegated if we don’t sign three decent players.

  15. NY_Gunner says:

    The wise move would be to intentionally get dumped out of the remaining cup ties and shoot for 7th or 8th in the table. Stay there, get our feet under us till next season, get in new acquisitions as needed and aim for the EPL trophy, ignoring the various cup ties…

  16. FoSulli says:

    And whos fault is it?? Its the Wenger out arse holes ruined this club.

    1. SueP says:

      Even I realised that Wenger had his day. I was a ‘be careful what you wish for’ supporter for too long and only when he was in his last two years fully appreciated that he should have moved upstairs or onwards before

      He gave us some wonderful years and I will always have the best memories of sharing visits to Highbury and the Emirates with my now grown up sons

      But he lost his way and mistakes were made with signings etc

      Emery, unfortunately did not have what was needed to re-boot the club and new signings haven’t been overwhelmingly successful in several cases and he struggled to articulate what he wanted to the team. I struggled to understand his post match interviews as I’m sure many did.

      The board and owners have made a horlicks of it and Arsenal are in a precarious position but I believe in Arteta in what he has achieved so far. Not in results yet but giving the players a different mindset I think he has what it takes.

      Having said that some of the strugglers are finding results from new managers and we need to PDQ

      1. Reggie says:

        Sue, i cant believe you furnished that moronic post with an actual reply.

        1. SueP says:

          Thanks Reggie
          I wonder at myself sometimes!!
          Happy new year

          1. Reggie says:

            Happy New year Sue and a Happy new Arsenal year.

      2. ken1945 says:

        SueP, yet another sensible, well reasoned and correct post.

        There is nothing you say that, in my view, is unfair, biased, personal or critical against any single person and it seems you have the same view regarding MA as most of us.

        It seems the name “Sue” on here guarantees real quality debating material – happy new year to both of you.

        1. SueP says:

          Aw!
          And a happy new year to you too!
          I can only speak for myself but tname Sue was popular in the late 50’s
          I’ve had years to perfect my sensible and reasonable views😂😂

        2. SueP says:

          It does mean that I’m bland

      3. FoSulli says:

        Mistakes in signings? What so aubaymeang and lacazette were mistakes?

    2. ken1945 says:

      Great post FoSulli, nobody could argue with that – not a sniff of relegation under the man, even during the last two years of mediocrity versus the last twenty – just goes to show how negative some of our fans really are.

  17. Grandad says:

    Can’t argue with you Sean.Before the start of the season I was optimistic in that I anticipated an improvement in defence with a back four of Bellerin,Chambers, Holding and Tierney with Saliva to follow next year.Sadly, due to injuries,we have been obliged to field, Socratis, Mustafi,Luis and Kolasinac a quartet which must make our opponents smile with delight given that none of them (apart from Luis on Sunday last) can actually defend.Faced with this situation Arteta has been obliged to use AMN and Saks as makeshift fullbacks, and while they have done well in difficult circumstances neither is a natural defender.With the need for a quality DM ever more important and the poor form of Pepe and Lacazette a real concern,as of this minute I would take finishing forth from bottom this season.As an old realist I will be accused of being far too pessimistic,but Arteta does not have a magic wand and he ,nor any Manager is capable of stringing a fun of wins together with the players currently available.I hope I am proved wrong and we end up where we are currently.

    1. jon fox says:

      Grandad, where we are currently lie is bang in the middle of the range of possible positions that I expect. We are 12th. I see no possibility whatever of higher than 8th and more realistically, JUST possibly 9th . At lower end, as low as just possibly 16th or more realistically 15th. I would bite your hand off to stay exactly where we are now. You call yourself an old realist. I am one also and will always stay a realist, unlike so many mere kids and fantasists on here (as on ALL fan sites, since SOME think only Gooners are fantasists. But I go onto other club sites and fans are largely unrealistic everywhere.) That is why being realists, AS YOU AND I both are, is good and truthful.

  18. Andrew Elder says:

    We are having the worst first half of the season for God knows how long and are currently achieving 1.2 points per game. Even if we play as badly for the next 18 games we will have achieved 45 or 46 points. This is not optism it’s realism so let’s stop this negativity. It’s been a c**p year so let’s look forward to a better one next year.

  19. GB says:

    Hi TMJW, good post and dead right we could be relegated and have to play in the second tier of English football, but, it will be for the first time if it happens. Woolwich Arsenal were in fact relegated in 1913 but never went down and stayed in the top division after “doing a deal”. BUT, we are the only team never to be relegated from the Premier League. Let’s hope it stays that way!

    1. jon fox says:

      GB, Not true. Relegated in 1913, we then played in Div TWO and were voted back up in 1919, when Div One increased to 22 CLUBS. Check your history;it is eassily checkable.

      1. jon fox says:

        FURTHER TO THE ABOVE, WE FINISED 5TH IN DIV TWO in 1914-15 . THEN THE WAR CAME AND IN 1919, SIR Henry Norris, our dynamic and well connected chairman used his “connections”(ahem!!) to ensure the vote went our way. All Gooners ought to know all about this. Sir Henry was possibly THE most influential person in our entire history. More than Chapman. More than Wenger. MORE THAN ANY OTHER PERSON! READ ABOUT IT AND LEARN. IT IS A FASCINATING HISTORY AND HE DUCKED AND DIVED WITH THE BEST OF THEM. HE ALSO MOVE US TO HIGHBURY, THOUGH HE ALSO OWNED FULHAM FC AND AT ONE TIME A MERGER WITH FULHAM WAS ON THE CARDS. HE LATER GOT BANNED FOR CORRUPT ACTIONS.

        1. Le Coq Monster says:

          Sir Henry Norris may have been allegedly corrupt, but what a legend!……………can you imagine how it must have felt back then getting one over the spuds?…………we`re not talking about just beating them in a game, but nicking their place in a division !………….no wonder they hate us! hahahahahahahahaha

      2. GB says:

        Thanks for the correction Jon, my bad, as the kids say.
        I shouldn’t drink before posting 🤪

        1. jon fox says:

          You are most welcome GB. As for not drinking before posting , I DRINK BEFORE DURING AND AFTER and am the most intelligent, most perfect and most modest(ahem!!) old git on here, not to mention the most handsome, most alcoholic, most deluded and most irritating too. I may be lying about some of these of course.

          Actually, there is a well known true story about when Arsenal bought David Jack from Bolton Wanderers in early thirties for ten thousand pounds. Herbert Chapman and a very young Bob Wall(later known as Mr Arsenal and a famous club secretary for many decades) were at the hotel before the Bolton directors. Chapman told the barman he and Mr Wall would have gin and tonics without ANY gin BUT the Bolton directors were to have gin and tonics, aplenty, with mostly gin. The plan worked and they bought the legendary David Jack for a low price. Pity Chapman is not here to run things today. He was a true visionary, in so many ways too.

          1. SueP says:

            My brother Cliff was named after Cliff Bastin
            He was the second child after me
            My mum I think wouldn’t name me Lesley
            (After Compton) So I ended up as Sue
            I used to get dropped off with nan and grandad in the early sixties whilst mum and dad took the 10 minute walk to the ground.
            Later on I watched Frank McLintock et al
            I k now s*d all about tactics but I do understand the flow of the game
            I do so enjoy reading all the posts
            So happy new year (hic) to you all

          2. ozziegunner says:

            jon, just be careful drinking too much; like me having had a nephrectomy, we have to look after our remaining kidney! 😊
            Wishing everyone a safe, healthy and prosperous 2020, with the Arsenal gaining 40+ points.

  20. Innit says:

    Absolutely NOT
    We are bad but not bad enough to be relegated

    1. GB says:

      Ha ha ha ha, are you aving a giraffe?

  21. Le Coq Monster says:

    Using my qualifications in maths, I can confirm that it is mathematically possible for us to be relegated!……………………..now using my qualifications as a seasoned football supporter I can confirm it is very much a possility we could be relegated!…………………now using my gut feeling and sixth sense qualifications I can confirm……….no f##king way!………………………..now using my sods law and life`s a bitch qualifications, I can confirm that………..we`re doomed!

    Seriously!………….even though we are imo improving our play after just over a week with Captain Black in charge, we need to see some wins!………….fact win one and lose one is better than drawing two and we are drawing too many!…………….we have the normal top teams we are struggling to beat as per normal….Man C, LiVARpool, Chavs, Totnumb, ManU and now we have other teams who have raised their game such as Leicester, Wolves, Shef U who we cant beat, now add even the teams in Relegation spots Norwich and Watford who we have failed to beat and not forgetting the teams above them who many we have failed to beat and the answer is bloody obvious………….we are in the mix at the wrong end of the table for the firts time since the `80`s!………..it is quite possible that Arteta will have to do his rebuild from The Championship on every level I have spoken about other than my gut feeling`s, but those are controlled by the emotions of a nutter! happy new year to you all!

    1. Truth says:

      🙂 I love it Le Coq hahaha!!

    2. Sue says:

      Happy New Year, Le Coq. 2020 – the year of the beaver 😂😂😂😂

      1. Le Coq Monster says:

        😆 I`m going to the Beaver of the Year awards tonight, Sue, with a special Beaver of the Decade award being given to Stan Kroenke`s syrup!…….stan wont be there to accept the award, but his beaver supplier…sorry …….his wife will be ! 😆

        1. Sue says:

          😂😂😂 love it!!
          You’ve made me laugh so much since you’ve been on here, Le Coq…please keep it up (er, making me laugh, I mean 🤣)

          1. jon fox says:

            Ooh MATRON! NUDGE, NUDGE!

      2. Le Coq Monster says:

        Happy New Year Sue ………………you have been one of the plusses this past year!
        😀

    3. jon fox says:

      You brighten my day. More please, whenever you can! My “qualifications” in pedantry and old gittery assure me we will not be relegated.

      1. Le Coq Monster says:

        Hahaha Jon………………to be on the safe side we need some blacks arts……………the resurrection of Sir Henry Norrris for a start !

  22. Sue says:

    Gary Lineker thinks we’ll stay up!
    Every year when you see those poor sods in the crowd crying at their team going down – surely that won’t be me at the end of this season?!!!

    1. SueP says:

      Oh Sue
      I was just looking forward to going out this NYE and I now just hope we’re smiling not wailing come May 2020

      1. Sue says:

        I’ll be wailing regardless, as LiVARpool will be crowned champions 😩
        Have a good night tonight! HNY 🥳😁

  23. We are going up, we will Win Europa league and play champions league, thats only if we spend wisely in january.

    Lets sale Lacazette and bring in Adama Traore or Tamu Puki. We need players who can run with the ball and take on defenders the Martineli is doing.

    1. Jim will fix it says:

      Wow you are deluded son! Adam Traore and Teemu Pukki aint winning us the Europa League lol!
      I hope you have a sane 2020, adios amigos!

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