While watching Saturday’s fixture against Bournemouth, I noticed the ‘latest comments’ on Just Arsenal. It was early on in the game but already words were being submitted like ‘conspiracy’ and ‘corrupt officials’.
I assume this was in reference to the failure to book Ryan Christie for his knee-high challenge on Saka.
It’s well accepted that whether it’s on the pitch or those operating VAR, officiating in 2024 is at a terrible standard. Refs on the pitch don’t trust their own judgement, relying on Video Technology to make the decision for them – which was never the point of the device. The boys and girls at Stockley park are not consistent in how they implement the tech.
So, conversations need to be had in the summer, solutions should be found how to improve how football is being ruled. Semi-automatic offside next season will be an improvement.
So, refereeing can be poor in England. Yet it is that simple. It doesn’t make it acceptable but there is a big difference between a man or woman being incompetent at their jobs compared to questioning their integrity.
A conspiracy is, ‘a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful.’
The definition of corrupt is ‘having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain’.
So, when Gooners use these words, they are accusing, in this case David Coote, of having some kind of agenda, working on his own volition or under orders to prevent Arsenal from winning. Which sounds like a rubbish gangster movie especially with zero explanation from the accusers of what the actual motivation is. Why does he want the Gunners to fail?
Why would he sit there with our crest on a darts board?
You see a generation has been brought up so that within seconds you can share your opinions to the rest of world no matter their credibility or if they make little sense.
Yet, language is beautiful, has meaning and has power. It’s not a reflection on sport but society to misuse words and it’s up those older to educate.
So don’t just make the accusation of conspiracy tell me what the corruption is, the motivation, the end goal, show me actual evidence.
Because if the same officials with a ‘secret plan to commit an unlawful act’ then gives us a penalty and disallow a Cherries goal, they are terrible at what they do aren’t they?
Let’s agree to this fantasy that they are corrupt and being paid to cost us winning – so why would they allow a subjective penalty to stand?
If they had a personal vendetta, why rule out Bournemouth’s goal?
If I was paying these officials to ensure we didn’t walk away with the points, then I demand my money back.
My only personal viewpoint is while Havertz may have been aware that contact would be made he has zero obligation to jump out of the way of a trailing leg. That’s not his responsibility.
When a keeper charges out, his objective is to get the ball. Once he fails to do that then leaving his leg out is poor goal keeping.
Taking the emotion out of my opinion, there was nothing wrong with Semenyo’s goal. It was simply another Raya mistake.
You remember when Arteta labelled Newcastle’s goal last year as a ‘ disgrace ‘?
Was that call at Saint James Park any more controversial then what the visitors went through.
The decisions on Tyneside were far more subjective than a goal that would have made it 2-1 at the time.
Our manager would show class to highlight the difference, and admit that this time he benefitted at the expense of his childhood friend Iraola.
Because going by the criteria that every dodgy call is corruption, was there a conspiracy against Bournemouth?
Because you can’t have it both ways.
If you’re going to slander people of being corrupt, quite a distasteful description of a person, I think you need evidence?
Or at the very least, when evidence is apparent that goes against your argument, be big enough to confront it or have the gumption to defend your stance. Simply going quiet isn’t acceptable.
I refuse to be part of a fanbase who cry of a conspiracy when a decision goes against us, but then casually ignore when we benefit from the same people accused of working against us.
Officiating is terrible in the UK but that’s all it is.
Because if officials were corrupt at Saint James Park, then they were yesterday at well.
You can’t have it both ways peeps.
Dan
ADMIN COMMENT
So here are some simple rules which I must insist commenters follow….
You agree not to give any personal abuse to other Arsenal fans. Everyone is allowed to hold their own opinions even if you disagree with them. It COSTS NOTHING TO BE POLITE TO OTHER ARSENAL FANS.
“Everyone is allowed to hold their own opinions…”
I’m not quoting Voltaire, I’m quoting you, kid.
Fantastic and well written article.
You are right about the refs as the standard of referees in the Premier league is at best very poor but for me what is worse is var as they get to look at incidents quite a few times and still get it wrong.
1. The tackle on saka red card for me
2. Our penalty 50/50 could have gone either way
3. Bournemouths goal should have stood
We have had some embarrassing decisions from referees this season but that’s just bad officials not dishonest
Great article, Dan. Spot on.
Unfortunately many people seem very prone to confirmation bias at this point. Yesterday it was very stark how some focused on the ones that went against us but dismissed the idea that anything unjustly went in our favour
And I thought havertz dived and really should have been booked. As much as I like him, he’s a diver. He’s done it too many times now and should be called out and told to stop.
Wasn’t it just like the rooney dive that ended the invincibles run? On his way down before the contract, and would have avoided any contact had he continued his usual running motion.
For Davi
IMO, the Rooney dive was a bit more blatant.
However, I agree that Havertz penalty was soft (we were lucky to get it) and the Bournemouth goal either should have stood or they should have got a penalty for the initial foul on Billing.
I agree with Dan on the competence of the referees.
👍 (having just watched it back I actually think three havertz one was worse, but it’s down to opinion)
If a governing body needs help and blatantly and deliberately or refuses to get help then that said body is both incompetent and corrupt.
But if the head of the stream is dirty it’s impossible for the stream not to be contaminated.
I find it extremely strange lesser league can officiate games so much more efficient than the richest league in the world.
PGMOL have the power within its right to invite the legendary Italian referee Pierluigi Collina, to assist with cleaning up the mess, but maybe, it may just be in someone’s interest things remain as is.
Gunsmoke, I’m not certain, but I think it’s the Premier League that you’re referring to, and if so, then they DID introduce VAR to help and WILL be starting SemiAutomaticOffideTechnology (SOAT) from next season. It’s not corrupt, because the PL is ALL of the clubs combined into one organisation.
Great, a baby step in the right direction.
Now am not saying they all are corrupt, that would have mean conspiracy.
Maybe its not exactly one hand washing the other.
But silent means consent, when the leadership goes deafening silent on blatant errors or only respond under duress maybe with a slap on the risks, it should be call out for what it is.
It is said, the things that are hidden from the wise and prudent shall reveal to the babes.
Not very long ago an Chelsea legend who played the game at the highest level, declared his three year old daughter at home would have gotten the decision right
That maybe pushing the envelope, but the officiating haven’t really improved much since.
We’ve done well, really well from refs & VAR this season, so no complaints from me, and TBH I’d say that it was mostly the matchday mob who continously get at the officials with their juvenile accusations of dishonesty.
Well done Dan on the article.
Bravo DAN. As a piece of sheer obvious reality, I struggle to recall a single JA article anywhere to match this one!
We thinkers onJA have always known that ref, although almost entirely plain lousy at doing the jobs thry OUGHT to do far better, are nevertheless HONEST, but mostly incompetent.
If we onJA collectively, had th brains that SOME OF US HAVE,we would concentrate al lour energies on campaigning to improve refs STANDARDS, instead of lying and caling them cheats .
It is plain to all who choose to THINK, that much of the reason why refs are completely out of touch with how player think,reactand therefore, is that SOME of IFAB’s ludicrous ” laws” of the game are unfit for purpose.
Handball is onerthat I havelong told anyonewho cares to listen (in myown straight to the point style) that handball does not exit any more
What DOES, tragically exist instead, is now” BALLHAND”.
That is such a ridiculous and game spoiling enactment by IFAB, taken on by refs, that it OUGHT to be returned, ASAP, to handball, as it once was correctly called.
And Dan , if you will now carry on writing in this necessarily REALISTIC FASHION, you and I will become allies and friends.
Respect DAN!!!
No it’s not incompetence, it is outright CORRUPTION and one can’t sugar coat it. If anyone thinks there is no corruption amongst the officials of the richest league in the world then that person is living in self delusion. Delusions of grandeur.
Throughout history there has never been an organization or nation with great and immense wealth and power that has not had troubles with corruption amongst its officials.
When you take a closer look at some of these decisions and study them you begin to see a clear pattern. Jesus said in the Gospel Of Thomas “See what is before you and what is hidden will be made revealed”. I don’t care what anyone says, my own personal opinion is that EPL is not just corrupt but extremely corrupt. There’s also the illusion of a competitive league when that’s as far from the truth as it can get.
My personal opinion:
THE OFFICIALS ARE CORRUPT!!!
SIGH, WRITE LARGE, DELIBERATELY SO!
As the saying goes,”there is always ONE”!
Look at the refs. These officials go through the highest level of professional training available. Some of them have FIFA badges. They have been heavily trained. But then you look at the mistakes they made, it is not a one off which can be excused. These are consistent errors that should never happen in the first place, let alone on a consistent basis almost every other week. There’s absolutely no excusing this.
I’m not going to argue any further with you Jon. I read your comment and that’s your opinion and no matter what I say it would not change your mind, that I know. Also nothing anyone says will change my mind.
THE OFFICIALS ARE CORRUPT!!!
And we’re still waiting for one to be charged, prosecuted & jailed😜.
One thing I’ll agree with you on is that it’s hard to imagine there is no corruption whatsoever within English football (even without evidence, I’ll grant you it’s hard to believe nothing at all goes on) – the questions to my mind are where it lies and what is the magnitude.
I don’t think there is enough evidence to charge referees with corruption, and the way it’s talked about, you’d think they must *all* be “in on it”, i.e a conspiracy, which I don’t think is remotely realistic – something would have come out by now.
Personally I don’t think they are all in on it as that would mean it’s no longer corruption but the norm.
There is time and season for everything. That time will come where officials will be prosecuted but not now. Right now the League is at its peak, the most powerful its ever been. Won’t always be that way. Things will change and if especially the financial dealings of the EPL is not put under control the whole system will crumble.
Man City didn’t face the legal battle while they were doing all their corrupt practices, it came years after. Same with Infantino. While the corrupt ones are in power they have the resources and technical plus legal know how to manipulate the system. But power is transient and just like the grains of sand the more they grab unto it the more they loose it. They’re reign will one day come to an end.
After then you will be shocked at the revelations and leak documents that will follow suits years after these set of officials have left the game and left power. It’s not a matter of if it will happen. It’s be a matter of when. But then I pray the likes of Jon Fox live even longer to bear witness to that era. Everything hidden will be made manifest in due time.
Oh, when I said “all in on it”, I specifically meant all referees, because we hear the same complaints regardless of who the referee or var referee was.
And of course a system can be completely corrupt, even if it’s to the extent it’s become the norm.
I’m sure city will have done something wrong, but are you suggesting you expect to find that city are the source of this corruption that leads to dodgy refereeing decisions? It’s just a bit funny because people say the same thing about utd years ago.
No City are not the source of this corruption. The corruption itself is within the officiating system. And City are benefiting from that corrupt system just like Man Utd did. Few years to come it might not be City benefitting again, it might even be we Arsenal benefiting. It’s the officiating system that’s corrupt and as such has left a huge hole for exploitation by clubs and billionaire owners
So in your opinion
We beat Cherries because the officials were corrupt ?
‘Delusions of grandeur’😜
Excellent article Dan, very well put sir!
Great Article Dan
Good Read
Agree completely
Let’s get this straight, The goal keeper missed the ball and he obstructed the direct path of the attacker and contact was made. According to the letter of the law that is all that is needed for a penalty. VAR knows this and could not over turn the refs decision. It was a penalty, do doubt. Contact made and path obstructed. The second incident regarding their disallowed goal was also correct because the player grabbed his arm although for a brief second and also moved him away from the ball. Definitely a foul on the goal keeper.var had to agree. You can sometimes get away with obstructing the goalkeeper, but not by grabbing his arm or moving him. Definitely a foul correct decision on both accounts by the ref and VAR according to the rules of the game. Third, the high studs on Saka that also drew blood, should have been reported to the ref to relook at the reply on the TV and it was a red card incident. The player should have been sent of as his boot was no where near the ball and his studs were high and he drew blood and injured the player. Definitely a red card offence. The VAR got that one incident wrong.
Re the penalty: The GK doesn’t obstruct him at all, KH just drags his leg and falls over – nothing the GK did obstructed him from continuing and taking the shot. It’s as obvious a dive as I’ve ever seen.
If that was fine for you, just don’t complain when others do it to us.
Havertz shouldn’t do it, not because it’s wrong, but because he’s not so good at it. He’s already had one yellow for it this season and needs to go back to diving school or just stay on his plates and score.
Well, he must be getting better, he got a penalty this time.
A sympathy pen😂.
🤣🤣
It’s a dive, clear as day. How naive can you be? Or biased? Or blind?
Don’t feel bad though, there’s many on here that are incapable of being objective.
💯 Daveg,
The VAR looked at all angles and came up with correct decisions
Correct Davi. It’s funny how Havertz manages to lift his right foot over the keeper, but not his left foot. It was obvious he left his left foot there so contact was made. People call it clever, I call it cheating.
👍
Opportunistic perhaps HD?
To any person that says all officials are corrupt. Please answer.
What is the agenda?
Who is paying them?
Why has no non corrupt referee come out and tell all?
What is the purpose?
Why just the premier league?
What gain is there for the organiser?
Why do all football clubs allow it to go on?
Referees are human. Humans make mistakes. Football incidents are very often, not black and white but opinion. Opinion varies. Humans are Biased, as shown in spades on here. Referees have been vilified, since the first referee, its not new. The biggest thing and again, is shown on here, people do not understand the rules of football. They think they do and that makes them entitled to say refs are, all the names under the sun. I have been a ref, it is a thankless task, I did get things wrong, I did fight with bias, I got (wrongly) accused by the mob, that lined the touch line of murder and theft but what I will say is. I tried to get things right. I have also seen, in my opinion, excellent referees, give it up because of the shit, that they get. When they dont deserve it. Remember its not an exact science and they are human. They DO make mistakes. That will never change, in football. Truth is, they make less now.
Oh and some of you know alls, should try and referee a game. You ALL would be in for a big shock!!!!!
So far on this thread, there is the usual divide between those who simply react and then post in anger , and on the other hand those who DO think and are simply INTELLECTUALLY BRIGHTER than the angry reactionary non thinkers.
As among football fans, so it is in life generally!
Just because someone’s views doesn’t align with yours doesn’t mean you’re intellectually brighter than that person. You’d probably be amazed at the huge intellectual gap they have over you if we were all to face off in real life.
Learn to respect people’s opinions and views without talking down on anyone or trying to look supreme and more intelligent.
SAD, BUT AT THE SAMETIME LAUGHABLE! Whatever else may be in dispute, it is clear to all the many thinkers onJA that YOU are not among them!
It’s not about opinion mate …
It’s about evidence
So if there was an conspiracy against Arsenal common sense would say we wouldn’t be awarded a penalty or Bournemouth have a goal ruled out ?
Think about
The corrupt officials motive is to stop us , why would they do that ?
Wouldn’t they give the goal ?
Excellent observations Chapo – those who become personal lose the argument immediately, especially when they THINK they’re cleverer than you.
The stupidity of thinking that referees are the ONLY profession that hasn’t been corrupted in football, let alone in ALL professions is the complete opposite of being intellectually brighter, it’s being absolutely comical and nieve in the extreme.
Couldn’t have worded that any better. You just hit the nail on the head
I was on two Spurs fans forums yesterday and most of them have convinced themselves that the EPL higher ups keep favouring Arsenal in order for us to win the title.
That the EPL authorities are biased against Tottenham football club.
But that’s what most fans of other clubs keep thinking about themselves. That the EPL is biased against them. That there is a conspiracy against them.
It’s all victimhood and conspiracy theories all around from all these fans.
Are they aware that Spurs are part of the EPL? One of the bigger clubs infact😜
I have Utd mates and 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 they say the refs are against them.😂😂😂😂😂
Well they would Reggie, as they are football fans!
. That is what so many of ALL CLUBS less bright football fans, in general, DO!
SIGH!
I agree with the author here. The officials have not always been as efficient or accurate as they should have been. However, calling into question their integrity has been disappointing to see.
Some fans have cunningly and rather disingenuously insisted on using terms such “corruption” due to some less commonly used definitions of the term. This has has led to some rather curious debates.
Short memories here, people forgetting the Fergie days and the clear favouritism from the refs for over a decade.
I’m guessing politicians and government organisations also just make mistakes and there’s zero corruption with them too? 🤣 let me guess, those betting charges against players were also just mistakes and have no basis
The self proclaimed “thinkers” seem to be afraid to face up to the reality that where there’s humans and a ton of cash there will be fraud/corruption/cheating. Only an extremely naive person would believe the EPL and all involved are 100% squeaky clean.
Ok, then tell us who is behind it and why do they do it. Who is training them, funding them and what are the gains for them? What proof do you have that this is organised?
Or a daft conspiracy theorist, such as you!
I’m not sure what your point is here – no one said there’s no corruption at all, but does it rise to refereeing? That’s certainly never been shown.
The “clear favouritism” towards utd you mention – you’ve decided that 1) *definitely* existed and 2) was down to corruption (money or some other favours changing hands)? Based on a few decisions going their way?
Didn’t in FA Cup semi Final 1999 against us they have a Roy Kenae goal harshly disallowed ?
Then in replay , he’s sent off ?
Then we get a penalty ?
Do those things happen if there was a conspiracy ?
Can’t pick and choose
Such generic examples Dan – are we talking about corruption in the PGMOL or just Arsenal?
If it’s the latter, then I suggest you broaden your horizon?
The examples you requested are found below by the way
The EPL generates about 5 billion a year if you don’t think there will be massive corruption in the industry which includes the supposedly law enforcers then you are naive
I find it incredible that so called “realists” are so nieve when it comes to referees.
I asked in a previous article on this subject, if anyone could name any other profession where some form of corruption hadn’t existed and gave the examples of politicians, doctors, bankers, financial advisors, NHS staff, carers, solicitors, barristers etc etc etc and not ONE reply was solicited.
Dan asks for examples and I gave him both Mike Dean and Mike Halsey who have both ADMITTED to breaking the rules.
In both cases, it wasn’t for monetary reward, which seems to be the reason people think they can only be held accountable for, but for two different, but corrupt purposes.
Dean ADMITTED to ignoring var findings in order to help out a fellow referee who was having a bad game – PGMOL came out and condemned his actions, but that was one perfectly clear example of the system being corrupted.
Mike Halsey’s example, however, goes to the very HEART of the PGMOL when he says that he was asked on different occasions, to ALTER his match report and say that he HADN’T seen an incident, when he had.
The reason for this?
So that the PGMOL could then go after the player who, in their eyes and not the referees eyes, had committed an offence.
As far as I know, the PGMOL has not commented on this, but for any sensible, sane thinking realist, the question would be – why would Halsey say this if it wasn’t true?
So Dan, there’s two examples for you once again as requested and I look forward to seeing any profession that hasn’t had corruption, as I requested before… the silence was deafening!!
Of course, referees have been found guilty of corruption (both in monetary and rule breaking) in other countries, but it seems that, even with the two examples above, the thought of the PGMOL being questioned is tantamount to treason!!
Such ignorance is incredible!!
Here’s something ELSE to ponder over, why have the PGMOL resisted the call for referees to explain contenscious decisions after a game?. Don’t they want fans to be educated as to the rules of the game?
Yet, as soon as a manager or player publicly expresses anger, puzzlement or incredulaty at decisions, they are summoned to the beak and fined or banned?
I’m not one of those who say officials target any particular club either, more that the rules need to be implemented properly and looked at when said rules are farcical – such as the handball scenario and not putting up the flag immediately for offside.
By the way, I WAS a referee and I know what a difficult job it is…. but I NEVER made a decision to help out a fellow referee and I was NEVER asked to FALSIFY my match report…just think about THAT!!
I think ken, people are on about corrupt referees against Arsenal. Doing something corrupt, is very different to a corrupt organisation. People are saying the PGMOL is corrupt and is organised corruption. ANY individual could have been corrupted at some point and that goes for any group, footballers, doctors and even police. Its called human nature. But the PGMOL is not corrupt. If it is, tell me why and for what reason and end, is it corrupt. Who gains and who loses. And WHO organises it. Lets take the goal at Newcastle. I personally accepted it was a goal. Those who didn’t, mentioned corruption. Why would that goal be related to corruption. What was the corruption behind it, to what ends and why. Why would someone pick Arsenal over Newcastle to suffer,that game. I dont get it. It would be possible to corrupt an individual but an whole organisation? I dont see it.
Reggie, at last an intelligent reply and question, rather than trying to ridicule others.
So in reply :
I believe that, by narrowing the discussion down to The Arsenal and one game, the bigger picture is being missed and /or diluted.
I have given two well documented examples – Mike Dean and Mike Halsey, but you ask me why and what advantage is obtained.
Well, Dean has told us why – he was protecting a fellow official, who was having a nightmare of a game – the advantage obtained? It protected the PGMOL official from criticism.
The corruption? A PL referee ignoring the rules, ignoring var and, by doing so, making a personal decision that (obviously) benefitted one team against the other.
Mike Halsey :
Corruption? Was asked by the PGMOL to change his match reports.
Think about that for a second, what could be more corrupt than that?
The advantage? It gave the PGMOL the chance to use VAR in order to persecute a player, manager who they deemed had got away with something.
It also helped the PGMOL cover referees mistakes and took away the referee making the final decision – which seems to be a crucial point for some.
As I said, no other profession has been so well run as to have zero corruption, could that be because the PGMOL are answerable to no-one but themselves and refuse to change that cloak of secrecy?
The examples are NOT conspiracy theories, as both Dean and Halsey have admitted to them, so WHY are we ignoring them?
Great post, Ken. I think the problem with the discussion is that people are talking about different things.
The examples you provided are important and provide strong evidence (proof effectively) that refs have and presumably will continue to bend the rules for certain reasons which I would certainly agree are wrong and unfair and could certainly be called a kind of corruption.
When I hear corruption in the context it usually comes up, though, I’m thinking of a conspiracy that causes referees to purposefully act against arsenal and/or in favour of another club, such as city or utd, in the decisions they make on the pitch. Some say the game is effectively rigged for that reason – it’s a completely different level.
Sorry, it probably appears as though I’m moving the goal posts, but it appears that way from my perspective also (slightly) – it’s just because we’re all talking about different things.
As I’ve said above, I wouldn’t say there is absolutely zero corruption within top level English football, I just think people see what they want to see in many cases.
(You have changed my view slightly TBF – appreciate the comment)
Ken, THIS realist would respectfully suggest to you , and to others who take your view, that undoubted inconsistencies and even the two cases you highlight with DEAN AND HALSEY, though far from acceptable, DO NOT amount to a conspiracy of refs against us or against certain teams .
It is a huge and false step you are claiming, to JUMP from outlining, correctly, what happened in thse two cases, to MAKING AN ASSUMPTION that refs are generally corrupt.
I SAID A WEEK OR SO BACK TO YOU, THAT YES OFCOURSE I do not deny that in the history of footbal, EVERY SINGLE ref has been entirely honest.
But to make that incredible JUMP to saying refs are often corrupt, is IMO unwise and a false conclusion.
Pretty much ALL agree that refs, taken overall, are incompetant and lousy.
But corruption is a line I WILL NOT CROSS. For the simple reason that it is NOT true!!
What a comprehensive post. And what a great reply to Reggie.
I refused to talk about Mike Dean’s and Mike Halsey’s cases because I didn’t want my own comment earlier to be too lengthy. You won’t find a better example of corruption than that, because the individuals involved both practically admitted and confessed to it.
But of course they INTELLIGENT ONES will either ignore these points you’ve raised or beat about the bush.
Chapo, they won’t raise this issues, because they bury their heads in the sand and, because they are so pig headed, refuse to acknowledge the FACT that these referees have actually said it!!
It does, of course, prove them wrong 100% as any edyxated person faced with that reality has to admit.
Educated and I use that word sparingly!!
For Ken
There are always 2 sides to an argument. Both sides should be respected regardless of agreement or otherwise instead of throwing the toys out of the pram as some do out here.
No organisation is squeaky clean as Davi rightly pointed out. If there was one I would be shocked.
But what you have raised is the PGMOL (organisation) as against individual referees. IMHO, I think referees are honest but incompetent rather than corrupt but the PGMOL could be classified as corrupt for covering up their inadequacy.
IGL, was Mike Dean corrupt when he ignored var evidence?
For Ken
Technically Yes. As he did not follow the guidelines and bent the rules.
We are basically in agreement.
As Mike Dean was not the referee on the day and part of the advisory authority in the game (VAR) covering up for the incompetent referee on the day (his mate whom he felt sorry for).
I am referring to the on-field referees and linesmen/women which are by and large honest.
So, in fact, your agreeing that there was corruption on the part of Mike Dean – that’s point one done and dusted.
Point two : When Halsey was asked to change his match report in order for the PGMOL to act against players, what description would you give to that request?
As an example, would you say that, for instance, a police officer was asked by his governing body to change his statement in order to penalise another person as being a correct thing to do, or would you say that it was a corrupt thing to do?
For Ken
Again technically Yes. This is again the advisory higher authority (in this case PGMOL).
But not the on field referee who I maintain is by and large honest (maybe incompetent if not in general at least on the day).
So when Halsey changed his match report, was he then corrupt and corrupting the system?
For Ken
“So when Halsey changed his match report, was he then corrupt and corrupting the system?”
Answer is no. It is the higher authority asking/forcing them to do so. He did not do so of his on volition as the on field referee.
I have to agree to disagree with you on this one.
own volition (not on volition).
So, from your answer then IGL, any person who changes a statement as requested by his superiors is not guilty of anything?
That was the answer given by so many people during WW2 – they were only following orders.
I actually respect Halsey for coming out and exposing the corruption, but why didn’t he do that at the time?
He was the on field match referee and willingly went along with the request, although he didn’t agree with it … how many other on field referees did the same thing and THEREIN lies the crux of the matter.
We don’t know that, but, under Mike Riley, this was the situation as described by Halsey in his autobiography – I’m rather sad that you see it differently, but we have respected each others view, without calling each other names 👍
For Ken
I have great respect for you and your opinions. I have respect for many other people on JA. Even those who accuse me. But I do not have to agree with them.
As I have stated earlier, No organisation that I have come across is squeaky clean. The hierarchy/ organisation can be questioned. The on field IMHO are honest.
I respect both Riley and Halsey for coming out stating the same. It just shows the sincerity of the individuals as they need not have mentioned it at all and covered it up as organisations do.
“why have the PGMOL resisted the call for referees to explain contenscious decisions after a game?”
I would have thought it would be putting unfair pressure on people, particularly over incidents that are often somewhat subjective. How many people would be willing to explain every contentious decision they made to the entire world? And how many would be able to do it well (especially considering they’d have little time to prepare)? It would end up like they’re being put on trial every game – would that really be fair?
Davi, interesting question and I can only answer it like this :
If a referee has made any contenscious decision according to the rules, that’s how he would explain his decision surely?
I’ve just been reading that the tackle made on Saka in the Bournemouth game was deemed “reckless” but was not a sending off offence… Now I, as a football fan, don’t understand that and would love to be educated as to why that decision was made… wouldn’t you?
Sure, but they have shows that do give the referee’s perspective. To grill individual referees after a match just seems cruel to me. I think there needs to be some balance between making referees accountable and not forcing them into extremely difficult and uncomfortable situations. It’s only football at the end of the day
Of course it’s only football, so why are managers told to come out and talk about a game, minutes after the finish – give their honest opinion (As MA did in the Newcastle game) question the decisions made… only to be fined or banned?
I ask you again, why was the Saka tackle decided to be seen as “reckless” and not dangerous?
WHY are the fans not entitled to know how such decisions are made?
Of course, we are getting away from the argument here, that despite all the protestations that referees are the ONLY select band that cannot possibly be corrupted, we have two examples where it is obvious they are!!
Maybe, under Mr Webb, referees are NOT asked to change their match reports but they were under Mike Riley… so please explain to me what that request meant to Mike Halsey?
Remember as well he said referees as in the plural, so how many are we talking about?
“Managers/players have to speak to the media for contractual reasons to do with broadcasting the game. Their clubs receive money for the broadcasting rights, so it’s just an obligation relating to that.
“I ask you again, why was the Saka tackle decided to be seen as “reckless” and not dangerous?” You didn’t ask me – I don’t know, to be honest.
“WHY are the fans not entitled to know how such decisions are made?”
“Why are they entitled?” is just as valid a question.
Then you’re taking it back to your original point, which I answered earlier, along with others – not too say you’re wrong for asking at all, but I started this line of questioning separately, not to get away from it.
Davi, we’re both accepting each other’s opinions which is great and good for debate – thank you.
Let’s take your point about why SHOULD fans be entitled to know – in my opinion, that would stop any thoughts of bias against individuals IF a referee was to say that the difference between reckless and dangerous is??? while also explaining why said referee didn’t take the injury into account.
The only time I have mentioned individual referees, is when they have made statements themselves.
The PGMOL has to be looked at as corrupt, if they are asking their referees to change their match reports, in order to persecute others – do you see it in a different light? If so, please explain.
I do hope that this has changed under Webb, but who knows?
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I take issue with the word entitled – I don’t think fans are entitled to it, but agree with the general principle that greater explanation would be beneficial to the game. I’m not sure that putting the referee on the spot to answer is fair, but for particularly controversial incidents, I do think it would be worth giving statements to clarify the thinking. Currently I don’t think they do this, but rather have a different or former referee speculate based on the rules as they understand them, and they do sometimes say when they believe the decision was incorrect. I might be wrong on the specifics here, but I do think this is a step forward in terms of transparency, but a little more accountability from the individual who made the decision may be the next step (if they’re not providing these communications already).
I do agree it’s fair to say that the pgmol is, or certainly was, corrupt to some extent based on halsey incidents you raised and that some kind of investigation is warranted. As others have said, however, I don’t think there is any evidence that games are being biased towards any particular team as yet.
I should have reiterated earlier that, while I can’t explain the decision regarding the saka challenge, I can’t explain the couple of major decisions that went against Bournemouth either, so it all looks too me like incompetence rather than malice.
And there DAVI, in your FINALtrue sentence, is surely the REAL TRUTH!
Personally i find KEN like a dog with a bone; he refuses to let go ,once he thinks he has detected something HE considers untoward or inconsistent.
He rarely,if ever, looks at the wider bigger picture, meaning REFS AS A WHOLE.
I do agree that refs would be well advised to explain puzzling decisons, but NOT staight after a match.
Its bad enough that managers are forced by TV contracts to speak just after a game is over ,while emotions are stillhigh You dont get fairness THAT way. The next day, would do fine IMO
BTW,I have always thought that far too many fans think they are ENTITLED to have EVERYTHING EXPLAINED.
Though I think it wiser for refs to explain, after a delay, I do NOT see that fans are actually ENTITLED to know. We ought to be grateful when we are told, but not demand it!
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Davi, I’m sad that you have given thumbs up to such a ridiculous.
Is not the fact that two referees have admitted to not following the rules proof that they are not whiter than white.
Let’s just take the Mark Halsey statement and forget Dean.
What he has said is that referees (plural) were asked to change (falsify) their match reports.
Why were they asked to do that?
He tells us why – so that the governing body could go after players who, in THEIR opinion, got away with something.
I refuse to get into a discussion with JF over this, because he will not accept those simple facts. Just as he uses the word perfection to try and bring down var, so he tries to say I’m saying that all referees are corrupt, which, of course, is just a complete lie.
Davi, if a police officer was asked to change his report in order to prosecute another individual, what would you call that?
Would you say it was untoward or inconsistent?
By the way, as it’s the fans who are the bloodline of clubs, why aren’t we entitled to question decisions and get truthful answers?
Isn’t raking someone’s shin, causing a open bloody wound, dangerous play?
Why should I be GRATEFUL to be told, after all the referees are quick to explain offside and handball decisions.
I’m not saying this is in any way a corrupt decision, I just want to know the answer.
Who better to ask than the people who made the decision, as it seems no fan has a clue to the difference?
@Ken
Just to be clear, in my response to Jon, I wasn’t intending to signal my agreement with anything said about yourself.
“By the way, as it’s the fans who are the bloodline of clubs, why aren’t we entitled to question decisions and get truthful answers?”
You/we are customers, we are not entitled to anything more than what we pay for.
Regarding the rest, I think we’ve already discussed – some we even agree on 🙂
Davi, we pay to see a football match being refereed within the laws of the game amongst other things.
I have the rule book in front of me and I still can’t understand the Saka decision – so as a paying fan, why aren’t I allowed to question the decision, in order to understand why it was made?
That shouldn’t even be classed as an entitlement, it should be a no brainier.
Thanks for the clarification and we have agreed on quite a few points.
If more reliable technology, like goal line tech & SAOT, to help onfield officials was introduced, we could most likely do away with VAR completely.
PGMOL is a different matter that should be dealt with by the group that funds them…FA, PL & EFL.
groups that fund them
I’m sure that the vast majority of match officials carry out their task to the best of their abilities. I fully respect the difficulty of the job at all levels and at the elite level the scrutiny is intense
It’s not, however, within the realms of possibility that referees haven’t been bought either. I don’t suspect anyone at all but human nature isn’t straightforward.
I fully understand the 2 references made by Ken1945. Trying to right a perceived wrong after the event is not acceptable. Altering reports is not acceptable
Do I think there is unwitting bias at times? Yes but not to the extent of trying to alter the outcome of a game. Apart from anything, the betting companies are all over betting patterns
It’s been mentioned before that we find it hard to see wrong in our own team (Havertz trailing leg) but not when the boot is on the other foot. We all have elements of bias.
Hello SueP
I respectfully suggest you check out the articles on refereeing in England published by Untold Arsenal.
Best wishes,
Charles.